Was V's act evil? (Probable spoilers!)

[Wulf Ratbane]

But Paladins are also the representatives of law.

Not worldly law, no.

Paladins are not glorified cops.

Now, a lot has to do with how this all plays out in your campaign world.

That has everything to do with it.

But if your world has systems of due process and "innocent-til-proved-guilty" [of a crime, rather than just of being evil], then the Paladin as a lawful person ought to take the matter before the magistrate.

Real-world concepts of justice and due process are as out of place in D&D as dragons and demons are in the real world.

Paladins don't NEED a court to prove to them that someone is evil. That's the point of the ability. They supercede due process by virtue of being agents of the gods themselves.

A world with such an infallible system has no need for due process. The paladin is due process.

For hundreds of years, Trial by Combat was considered due process-- in the real world, by "rational" people. It's the same concept.

For me, as GM or player, I'm far more comfortable with the idea of due process and people being punished for what they DO rather than what they ARE (even if what they *are* is EVIL), and I'd play a Paladin that way.

You don't detect as evil unless you are seriously evil-- evil as defined by D&D:

Mundane or "free willed" evil < Undead < Evil Outsiders & Clerics

You have to dedicate your life and your soul to evil to register as anything more than faintly evil.

If it's anachronistic, so be it. It's my character and/or my campaign.

Yes, it's anachronistic.

More power to you and your game, though!

 

[Umbran]

And finally, in my game, my NPCs - especially my evil ones - are not suicidal. After such a spell, just about everyone would think twice about messing with such a power. Some fanatic priest of Tiamat might - might, if Tiamat did not simply write this off as the ABD making a fatal mistake - want to take revenge, but almost all dragons, for example, would simply write a memo to themselves "Do not mess with that elf, ever!".

I dunno. Dangerous or not, V has shown the ability and will to take down a large chunk (if not all) of an entire species. I would think that a god devoted to a species might well take this as a serious threat. The dog is no longer sleeping, so lettign it lie may not be a hot idea.

From a practical viewpoint, "almost all" is not sufficient. All it takes is one member of your species to screw things up. If suddenly all the elves were killed by a spell,. would you trust every human to not try to make sure it was never cast on humans?

If you can't trust them all, you might as well help make sure the threat is taken care of once and for all...

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I still play first edition, so it's not anachronistic to me. Any being with an evil alignment detects as evil to one degree or another, and killing them just because they are evil is both unlawful and evil. If a paladin detects evil on someone, he'd better be sure they have committed a crime punishable by death before he lops any heads - in his deity's eyes, not by the laws of man.

Of course, this should be another thread, I'll not hijack this one further.

 

[Remus Lupin]

That has everything to do with it.

If we agree on that, there's nothing else for us to fight about then.

Yes, it's anachronistic.

More power to you and your game, though!

We all make our peace with certain levels of anachronism in this game. And I suspect it might be fun to have a campaign with YOUR kind of Paladin in the same party with MY kind of Paladin, as long as we didn't wind up killing each other (in game, of course!)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I dunno. Dangerous or not, V has shown the ability and will to take down a large chunk (if not all) of an entire species.

Hmm. I assumed the spell was called Familicide (and not Genocide) for a reason.

I don't think V. wiped out all Black Dragons, everywhere, thought I have never been good enough with genealogy to figure out exactly how it would work.

I don't think it kills all blood relatives all the way back to the Adam and Eve of black dragonkind.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I suspect it might be fun to have a campaign with YOUR kind of Paladin in the same party with MY kind of Paladin, as long as we didn't wind up killing each other (in game, of course!)

Well, since my paladin derives his authority from his God, and yours cedes his authority to the State-- smart money's on my guy.

 

[hamishspence]

The claim "you have to dedicate life to evil to register as more than faint" is in error- a high level person who has only just crossed the line, will radiate more powerfully than a low level multiple murderer.

Its very easy to be Evil in D&D without being a Complete Monster- BoVD, Champions of Ruin, Exemplars of Evil, alll show this.

Heroes of Horror- "Evil people are not necessarily lawbreakers" and goes on to say a paladin who smites without other evidence of wrongdoing can expect to be charged with murder.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Its very easy to be Evil in D&D without being a Complete Monster- BoVD, Champions of Ruin, Exemplars of Evil, alll show this.

Optionalrulebooksayswhat?

 

[Remus Lupin]

I would say both our Paladins derive their power from their respective Gods, but mine recognizes a variety of spheres of authority to which a civilized person is required to be lawfully subject.

 

[jgsugden]

This is up for debate - but there is no broad answer that is correct. It is a campaign specific answer that only a DM can provide. If I were a PC contemplating such an act, I'd certainly wish to make use of a spell like Hand of Fate, Commune, etc... to get a determination before I acted.

In a game I ran: Alignment is relative to the views of the Gods. One good God might look on this act and praise it as a great achievement for the forces of light that will save the lives of hundreds, thousands or millions of righteous beings. Another might look on the act and condemn the spellcaster for murdering thousands indiscriminately. Regardless, the PC with that type of power - and the willingness to use it - would likely be hunted down and killed by someone before they could use it again. Once killed, the PC's soul would travel to where his or her God felt it should go.