D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[Seramus]

I am getting a sense that you wanted the adventure to fail in order to prove it was badly written.

Hard to say. I've gotten stubborn about things and decided to run them "As Written" because I wanted to see for myself and make my own judgements before changing things around. But at the same time, I recognize that scientific desire is somewhat counterproductive to the entire table having fun (unless they are into and willing to do the same thing). And I try not to be surprised if and when I discover fire is indeed hot.

 

[Hussar]

And that's another problem that I have with it, it's a complet book for a short adventure with a replayability level of zero with the same group, and assuming that, after all its defects, you might want to run it THREE more times is simply silly.

I don't look at it like that to be honest. I look at it as a fantastic Waterdeep supplement that has a nifty adventure in it for really grounding a group into Waterdeep and Forgotten Realms. As this was the first ever adventure I ran in Forgotten Realms, it worked pretty well for me that way. It introduced me to a lot of the elements of the setting and gave a great deal of context rather than most setting guides which are just sort of encyclopedia entries without anything linking them together.

I can totally see if someone was a real Forgotten Realms SME that the adventure would be less useful. But, again, as I said, I know very little about FR, having only really gotten into it in 5e.

And, let's not forget, you're supposed to do Dragon Heist as a lead in to Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which WILL take you up to 20th level. And, provides lots more context. I ran the Fall setting because I loved the picture of Zardoz Zord I saw and just HAD to use it. So, the whole drow thing was all new to me and, of course, means you can tie it into the drow section of DotMM if you wanted.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Hard to say. I've gotten stubborn about things and decided to run them "As Written" because I wanted to see for myself and make my own judgements before changing things around. But at the same time, I recognize that scientific desire is somewhat counterproductive to the entire table having fun (unless they are into and willing to do the same thing). And I try not to be surprised if and when I discover fire is indeed hot.

You can run through how an encounter might go in your head, especially if you know your players, and if the issue is combat I sometimes play it out against myself using stock characters.

 

[dave2008]

@Retreater I've read about your failures with PF2 and Frost Maiden and now this. Do you have any success stories to share!

 

[Lyxen]

I don't look at it like that to be honest. I look at it as a fantastic Waterdeep supplement

Honestly, in terms of Waterdeep, there are way better supplements out there. What is in this one that makes it fantastic ?

that has a nifty adventure in it for really grounding a group into Waterdeep and Forgotten Realms.

he adventure is certainly not nifty to me, it's a very poor railroad that fails on so many levels to engage players. There are far better ways to ground a group into the FR if it's what you are looking for.

As this was the first ever adventure I ran in Forgotten Realms, it worked pretty well for me that way. It introduced me to a lot of the elements of the setting and gave a great deal of context rather than most setting guides which are just sort of encyclopedia entries without anything linking them together.

Good if it worked for you, I just don't share the enthusiasm at all.

I can totally see if someone was a real Forgotten Realms SME that the adventure would be less useful. But, again, as I said, I know very little about FR, having only really gotten into it in 5e.

I certainly am not a FR SME, as I don't like the setting at all, honestly, but any other adventure of 5e set in the FR would do a better job for me.

And, let's not forget, you're supposed to do Dragon Heist as a lead in to Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which WILL take you up to 20th level. And, provides lots more context. I ran the Fall setting because I loved the picture of Zardoz Zord I saw and just HAD to use it. So, the whole drow thing was all new to me and, of course, means you can tie it into the drow section of DotMM if you wanted.

If anything, that picture totally killed the module for me.

After that, to each their own in particular in matters of taste.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I bought the module on FantasyGrounds because I needed information on Waterdeep and I think it failed there. I got some good locales that i used and I did use a piece of it but I would have got a better map of Waterdeep with at least the street names.

I did not think much of it as an adventure.

 

[TheSword]

Honestly, in terms of Waterdeep, there are way better supplements out there. What is in this one that makes it fantastic ?



he adventure is certainly not nifty to me, it's a very poor railroad that fails on so many levels to engage players. There are far better ways to ground a group into the FR if it's what you are looking for.



Good if it worked for you, I just don't share the enthusiasm at all.



I certainly am not a FR SME, as I don't like the setting at all, honestly, but any other adventure of 5e set in the FR would do a better job for me.



If anything, that picture totally killed the module for me.

After that, to each their own in particular in matters of taste.

To be fair, I hate that picture too. Though maybe I’m more comfortable filtering things out. If I didn’t like a single picture I’d just ignore it, it wouldn’t spoil a book for me. If the whole art style was annoying that might be different.

The book has a city warehouse, a sewer hideout, a haunted tavern, ten further city locations, a hidden vault, a wizards tower (plus extra dimensional hideout), a beholders underground gang lair, Two large villas (one with underground temple) and a large ship location (with additional submarine). That’s a hell of a lot of adventure locations. I’m struggling to think of any single book that has that many detailed locations in it. Plus all the NPC’s, magic items, plot hooks, and Waterdeep gazetteer stuff.

I don’t quite get when people expect to run a published module as written. To me the details in the book are just suggestions of what to do or use. If I don’t like something I ignore it. If something is missing, I add it.

This might be why I struggle to see this module as a railroad. My PCs decided to head down to the first level of undermountain at 3rd level and a few days dungeon crawling before getting caught up in the fireball attack. If they hadn’t been interested in running a tavern then I wouldn’t have made them. If they didn’t want to engage with the Stone of Grollor I wouldn’t have made them. There are plenty of other ways to involve powerful NPCs like Manshoon, The Xanathar or the Cassalanters, other than the chase chapter. Fireball could have taken place anywhere at any time.

 

[Lyxen]

The book has a city warehouse, a sewer hideout, a haunted tavern, ten further city locations, a hidden vault, a wizards tower (plus extra dimensional hideout), a beholders underground gang lair, Two large villas (one with underground temple) and a large ship location (with additional submarine). That’s a hell of a lot of adventure locations. I’m struggling to think of any single book that has that many detailed locations in it.

And all are accompanied by a map of really poor quality that looks to have been drawn 30 years ago. Most modules have quality maps for locations, this one does not.

Plus all the NPC’s, magic items, plot hooks, and Waterdeep gazetteer stuff.

Really not impressed.

I don’t quite get when people expect to run a published module as written. To me the details in the book are just suggestions of what to do or use. If I don’t like something I ignore it. If something is missing, I add it.

The thing is that while some modules can be run more or less straight out of the box, this one is the only one with a purely linear story with such a heavy raildroading that it ignores what the PCs are doing. It needs profound rework, more than any other that I've see.

This might be why I struggle to see this module as a railroad. My PCs decided to head down to the first level of undermountain at 3rd level and a few days dungeon crawling before getting caught up in the fireball attack.

That is if you are interested in running a huge dungeon after that. We did not.

If they hadn’t been interested in running a tavern then I wouldn’t have made them. If they didn’t want to engage with the Stone of Grollor I wouldn’t have made them. There are plenty of other ways to involve powerful NPCs like Manshoon, The Xanathar or the Cassalanters, other than the chase chapter. Fireball could have taken place anywhere at any time.

Again, needing another module to make this one palatable is not a great credit to the adventure in itself...

 

[TheSword]

And all are accompanied by a map of really poor quality that looks to have been drawn 30 years ago. Most modules have quality maps for locations, this one does not.
Really not impressed.

The thing is that while some modules can be run more or less straight out of the box, this one is the only one with a purely linear story with such a heavy raildroading that it ignores what the PCs are doing. It needs profound rework, more than any other that I've see.

That is if you are interested in running a huge dungeon after that. We did not.
Again, needing another module to make this one palatable is not a great credit to the adventure in itself...

So just out of interest… why on earth did you run Dragon Heist, if you don’t like the locations, the art, the NPCs, Items and monster, don’t want to tie it into other Waterdeep locations and think it’s a railroad?

(Incidentally most of the maps are available full colour in Mike Schley style from DM Guild for pennies)

 

[Lyxen]

So just out of interest… why on earth did you run Dragon Heist, if you don’t like the locations, the art, the NPCs, Items and monster, don’t want to tie it into other Waterdeep locations and think it’s a railroad?

I did not run it and never will, I pla... no, endured through it, hoping that it would be interesting as I love City Adventures. But it's NOT a city adventure, just a series of immutable encounters set inside a city but it does not feel like it, you are NOT performing a heist, and after reading through it I understood why the DM (who is a great friend from almost 40 years ago but who did not, unfortunately, had the time to do a lot of preparation) struggled with it and why we were so disappointed by the end result.

I understand that with a huge amount of work you can turn it into a city adventure worthy of the name, but you will still end up wasting a large part of the module (because of the absolutely stupid "replay" thing which is basically just a way to fill up pages). And it just goes to show the really poor quality of the production.

(Incidentally most of the maps are available full colour in Mike Schley style from DM Guild for pennies)

Like most modules, there are free enhancements and there are paying ones over on DM's Guild, but it's still not an excuse for the really low quality of the module.