Ways of players getting Ability Scores - I require some help!

[Thondor]

Hot take:
Unless you plan to have your system uses ability checks where you roll under their value (i.e. make a dex check -- Frank the Fighters dex is 12 -- he roles 3d6 or a d20 and hopes to get 12 or under) don't have attributes like this. Have a -2 to +3.
Got six stats? Give them 6 points to distribute as desired. Or they can pick an array.

Something Really different:
Make a pack of cards. These are perks. Make up a bunch. Give each player 2 or 3. They can use them for a bonus or to succeed at a challenge. Using them spends them though, and they don't get em back until . . . (the end of the adventure, or a certain amount of downtime in safety.)
You don't have any attributes, other than these. You are a average normal person otherwise.

perks could be things like:
resilient -- ignore one debilitating injury. (You are still injured, but you power through.)
strong -- carry, lift or break something that no one else can
alert -- notice a danger that everyone else missed
survivalist -- you find food or water, that no one else noticed at a critical time (we can totally eat those cat-tails)
scientist -- use obscure knowledge or careful experimentation to solve a technical problem

In certain circumstances just having something in your possession could be a perk.

Why would this be good -- spending perks has the feel of carefully rationing and using of diminishing resources. This may be a good match for your goal of

focus(ing) heavily on harsh survival, semi-realistic aspects

 

[_HERETIC_]

Something Really different:
Make a pack of cards. These are perks. Make up a bunch. Give each player 2 or 3. They can use them for a bonus or to succeed at a challenge. Using them spends them though, and they don't get em back until . . . (the end of the adventure, or a certain amount of downtime in safety.)
You don't have any attributes, other than these. You are a average normal person otherwise.

I do kind of have something kind of like this which is called Stalker's Grace.
"Stalker’s Grace allows you to reroll a failed die roll twice and lets you take the best roll out of the three. Stalker’s Grace can be found in the game world in the form of dog tags which belonged to former Stalkers. They can also be a part of a loot table or be awarded by the GM to players who performed exceptionally well with combat tactics, roleplay or else. Each player should use a maximum of 3 dog tags which grant Stalker’s Grace within a session, this is however up to the GM. When a charge of Stalker Grace is depleted, the dog tag loses it's "spiritual/magical" effect and turns into a generic item."

This can theoretically be used to accomplish these things as you could, for example, decide to reroll your strength check to lift, push or pull an object in question. Or you could use it to reroll your Knowledge (Herb Lore) or Science (Biology) check to reconsider whether or not that cat-tail is edible. ;D

Unless you plan to have your system uses ability checks where you roll under their value (i.e. make a dex check -- Frank the Fighters dex is 12 -- he roles 3d6 or a d20 and hopes to get 12 or under) don't have attributes like this.

Ability checks and the like are essentially how they are in Pathfinder 1e/2e or DND, generally speaking. So whatever the ability score or skill that needs to be rolled is, the player/entity in question simply rolls a D20 and applies their modifier if available. Higher/Lower rolls would just be made by a percentile or with a coin. That's how I would do it for example, good old heads or tails.

 

[Maxperson]

What I do for my group is allow them to place 5d6-2L in 2 stats, 4d6-L in two stats, and 3d6 in two stats. Then they roll their stats.

The 5d6-2L are typically placed in prime stats and rarely yield stats too low for main stats. The 4d6-L are typically placed in non-prime, but preferred stats. The 3d6 are the "dump" stats, but sometimes give a decent number.

If that's still too swingy, you can add the 1d4 or 1d6 stats to spread around to raise stats they like, but I'd cap how high a stat can go with bonus points to 15 or 16. You don't at all need to start with a 17 or 18, and a 17 or 18 after racial bonuses can mean the PC is starting with a 20.

 

[Thondor]

Ability checks and the like are essentially how they are in Pathfinder 1e/2e or DND, generally speaking. So whatever the ability score or skill that needs to be rolled is, the player/entity in question simply rolls a D20 and applies their modifier if available. Higher/Lower rolls would just be made by a percentile or with a coin. That's how I would do it for example, good old heads or tails.

You need to specify your DnD edition Your description I take to mean 3ed + versions.
If you only ever use ability attribute modifiers and never use the actual scores for anything, then you do not need the scores.
Many games use just modifiers that are actually used in rolls and these are their attribute values -- Fate, Pbta, Sword's Edge, many others.

DnD has those scores because those attribute scores themselves used to be actually used (at least occasionally) in earlier editions of the game.

 

[GMMichael]

You need to specify your DnD edition

This is pretty critical to the discussion. This thread is in TTRPGs General, but it sounds like a d20 system issue.

Further, deadly combat is not cause for raising ability scores - it might be a reason to raise hit points, though. If OP is having some confusion about how to design the game, it would help to look at all of the rules, explicit and implicit. Without doing this, one might just be remodeling D&D and breaking the system while trying to "improve" parts of it.

 

[_HERETIC_]

This is pretty critical to the discussion. This thread is in TTRPGs General, but it sounds like a d20 system issue.

Further, deadly combat is not cause for raising ability scores - it might be a reason to raise hit points, though. If OP is having some confusion about how to design the game, it would help to look at all of the rules, explicit and implicit. Without doing this, one might just be remodeling D&D and breaking the system while trying to "improve" parts of it.

You need to specify your DnD edition Your description I take to mean 3ed + versions.
If you only ever use ability attribute modifiers and never use the actual scores for anything, then you do not need the scores.
Many games use just modifiers that are actually used in rolls and these are their attribute values -- Fate, Pbta, Sword's Edge, many others.

DnD has those scores because those attribute scores themselves used to be actually used (at least occasionally) in earlier editions of the game.

I am just straight up making my own system as of right now with certain parts of it being inspired or taken from other systems. I am at the beginning of getting things down for character creation, so a lot of things are not even set in concrete. In the case of what DND Edition, I am referring to 3ed +. My bad for not pointing it out.

The reason as to why I am concerned about the Ability Scores of PCs is that they effect the skills. The modifier of the ability scores does give a bonus to the skills.

So, for example, Agility represents your fine motor-ability, coordination and reflexes and would give a bonus to your usage of pistols and bows or any other skill that has Agility as their "parent". If that makes sense.

Ability Score rolling resulting in extremely low values might be quite detrimental to early campaigns and makes it more dangerous than I as the creator intend it to be.

But things can after all be changed any time currently. I don't have a testing version or anything like that currently. So things are still partially unclear in some areas as of right now. There are many plans and drafts but it's a tough process making something actually enjoyable for everyone else except me lol

 

[Thondor]

@_HERETIC_
Looks like you are new here on ENworld, so if you have read and played dozens of very different RPGs . . . then what follows doesn't apply.

My best advice to someone who is looking to design a system is combine things you like from multiple (at least two) different games that you like.
This means of course you need to play more then one game -- particularly beneficial is a game that is pretty different (from D&D 3e+ in this case). It will be eye-opening and you'll be able to combine what you like an enjoy about both. Best to read a few, and play at least one new game fairly deeply.

There are literally 10,000 + RPG core rulebooks out there. While many share systems/game engine there are hundreds of very unique games.* You don't even have to look only at RPGs, boardgames are a good source of inspiration too.

My first game Simple Superheroes is fundamentally a combination of certain OSR (i.e. early early D&D) design sentiments (making a rule for everything ahead of time is foolish), nWoD, and RISK (the boardgame) mechanics.
I played all of these a lot. And read a boatload of comic books.
Come to think of it early Cortex system games probably had an influence too, though I played significantly less of those.

My most recent work, God-Killer Prophecy is a combination of inspiration from a lot of GMless one-shot games which I have read and played multiple sessions of: The Quiet Year, Palanquin, Vanagard, and some that I have only played once or twice usually at a conventions (Wanderhome, Kingdom, Universalis).
Mechanics are playing card driven, and there isn't a specific game I drew on for that part, but I have played a lot of card games (both boardgames with custom decks and ones with standard playing cards.)
The last ingredient here was reading a boatload of high-fantasy novels.

Creativity is largely a combination of of existing ideas in new ways.

Here are some style of games to look for:
A more tactical game
A more abstract (perhaps strategic) game
A more narrative game
A more simulationist game
A GMless game
A one-shot game
A solo play game
A generic game engine

*there is probably a game out there that does something very close to what you want. An you could find it and learn it with less work. That does not mean that designing your own is a foolish endeavor. Creating something is an experience that you will learn and grow from. It is a meaningful endeavor.

 

[aramis erak]

I thought about a party pool version, but rejected it because non-game RW interpersonal issues could influence or BE influenced by the distribution. Especially true if there’s an imbalance between the players’ experiences & expectations within the hobby.

I’m not familiar with the 2D20 Lifepath system, but the name suggests it’s a spiritual successor to the way Traveller’s career paths influenced character design.

Only on the loosest comparisons. I've seen the term used in one RPG System's texts, and that is Interlock (Cyberpunk 2013, CP2020, CPv3, CP Red, Mekton II, Mekton Zeta)

System	Classic Traveller	Mongoose Traveller	Traveller MT/TNE/T4	Interlock	2d20
Attributes	Rolled	Rolled or Picked	rolled	Rolled	built by path
Skills	Random from career	(random or picked) from career	(random or picked) from career	Points pool	built by path
Lifepath model	Randomized career with terms	Randomized career with terms	Randomized with terms	Random facts	deterministic multiple choice points
Background skills	ability to use firearmes	zero-levels from homeworld	Zero-levels from background	none - buy with pool	choice within step of lifepath

In 2d20 STA:
There are 6 attributes (each starts at 7) and 6 skills, for which PCs start at 1 in all.

1. Pick species: increases Attributes, gives a Trait and a Talent
2. Pick environment: gives some Attribute increases and Discipline increases, and a Value.
3. Pick Upbringing and whether or not you embraced it. Gives Att, Discipline, a skill Focus and another Talent
4. Pick Academy/education choice. Atts, Disciplines, 3 Foci, 1 Talent, and Value
5. pick "Career" - as in, how long: Young, Experienced, or Veteran. Gives a Value and if not young or veteran, a specific bonus Talent
6. Pick or roll Event 1. Gives Att, Disciplines, Focus, Value, Talent, and/or Trait, but not all of them.
7. Pick or roll Event 2. Same possibilities as event 1
8. Finishing touches: a final Virtue
9. Rebalance: Atts cap at 12 for best and 11 for other; skills at 5 for best and 4 for other. Points in excess transfer to other atts/skills.

It benefits greatly from a worksheet with slots for all the bits.
Every one of the 8 main choice points has an option to roll for it.
So, the 8 base choices, the Environment, Academy, and Events all have some options with choice of attribute raised and choice of skill raised. Every focus is a choice unless your Academy choice was Operations Technician, which requires a specific focus.
Every Value is an open ended choice. There is guidance.
Talent receipts other than for Career are choice from an (ever increasing by the splat) list of talents
Traits from events are open ended. There is guidance on the few that do.

All commissioned officers between Ensign and Captain start play with 56 points of attributes, 16 points of skills, 4 Values, 4 Talents, 6 foci, 1 to 3 traits.
Therefore, even at minimum there are several dozen choices to make.

But then, there's also creation in play... which does away with the lifepath. You get two arrays, one for attributes and one for skills. You assign all attributes from [10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 7]. You then pick species and apply the trait and att mods. You then pick your two best: Either a [5, 3] or a [4, 4], your department must be the highest Discipline score. Pick a value. During play, you get [3, 2, 2, 1] for the other disciplines, 4 talents, 6 foci, and 3 values. When you need one, you specify it, possibly even just before rolling using it.

There are some deviations for certain types of PCs; EG: academy cadets don't get all the events; underclassmen (C/3c, C/4c) don't get any, while upperclassmen (C/1c and C/2c) get 1 event. They automatically count as young.

In Classic Traveller:

1. Pick species, and in some cases, caste or gender.
2. Roll Atts
3. Attempt to enter career;
   1. if failed, drafted into a career
4. Roll for survival
   1. if failed, go back to 1
      1. optional: short term and exit, continue at 4.2
   2. gain 1 skill receipt
   3. if term 1, gain 1 more skill receipt
   4. if term 1, gain service skill
5. If not commissioned/positioned
   1. if term 1 and you were drafted, go to 7.
   2. Roll for commission/position
      1. on fail, go to 7.
      2. on success
         1. rank goes to 1
         2. gain rank 1 skill if any
         3. gain 1 skill receipt
6. if rank ≥ 1 & rank < 6, roll for promotion
   1. on fail, go to 7
   2. on success
      1. increase rank
      2. gain 1 skill receipt
      3. gain any rank skills for current rank, if any
7. Roll skill receipts
   1. Pick table from career's list
   2. roll 1d on chosen table, take that element
      1. if element is a non-cascade skill you don't have, gain it at level 1
      2. if element is a non-cascade skill you have, increase it one level
      3. if element is a cascade skill, pick which subskill to either gain at 1 or increase by 1
         1. certain cascades contain cascades: Vehicle being the main one.
      4. if element is an attribute, increase it one level
8. if term is 4th or later for Humans/Vargr, or the equivalent point for others,
   1. Roll aging saves from correct aging table
   2. if save failed, reduce that attribute by the listed amount
   3. either way, continue to next attribute until all listed saves attempted
9. if not a short term & out, decide on whether or not you want to continue career
   1. If desiring to continue, roll for rëenlistment.
      1. On fail, go to 10
      2. on success, go to 4
   2. if desiring to exit, roll for reenlistment;
      1. Roll 12: forced to reenlist, go to 4
      2. other roll: exit career
10. Figure musting out benefits: 1 per term, plus 1 for rank 1 or 2, 2 for rank 3 or 4, and 3 for rank 5 or 6.
    1. If you have remaining rolls:
       1. pick table: Cash or Benefits
       2. roll on table, get that item
          1. Note that some are attribute increases. Excess past species max are lost
          2. Second receipt of weapon skill can be taken in the previous weapon taken
          3. return to 10.1
11. FInishing Touches:
    1. Name
    2. Rank title (lookup)
    3. Noble title (lookup)

Note actual choice points in CT, Rules as written:

• Species (if Referee allows)
• Career entry attempt
• Whether or not to attempt commission
• whether or not a commissioned character rolls for promotion
• which skill table
• which subskill of a cascade (Cascades: Gun Combat, Blade Combat, Vehicle, Aircraft, Watercraft, Ground Vehicle)
• whether or not to continue
• which benefits table.

That's impressive looking - but there is no mechanical advantage to skipping commission nor promotion rolls. There are 4 tables per career.

MegaTraveller adds another roll: Special Duty; it gives an extra skill receipt. It also has MANY more cascades; it actually results in about 3× to 5× the number of choices in character gen over CT
TTNE has the same rolls as MT, except for skill receipt resolution, which is pick from list unless first term.
T4 is as MT, but 6 skill tables per career, and skill receipts may be rolled or picked.
MGT combines reenlistment and promotion into one roll, and Special Duty has a special events table. It also has a different aging model. It also has an option for point build attributes and point build skills.

 

[_HERETIC_]

@_HERETIC_
Looks like you are new here on ENworld, so if you have read and played dozens of very different RPGs . . . then what follows doesn't apply.

My best advice to someone who is looking to design a system is combine things you like from multiple (at least two) different games that you like.
This means of course you need to play more then one game -- particularly beneficial is a game that is pretty different (from D&D 3e+ in this case). It will be eye-opening and you'll be able to combine what you like an enjoy about both. Best to read a few, and play at least one new game fairly deeply.

There are literally 10,000 + RPG core rulebooks out there. While many share systems/game engine there are hundreds of very unique games.* You don't even have to look only at RPGs, boardgames are a good source of inspiration too.

My first game Simple Superheroes is fundamentally a combination of certain OSR (i.e. early early D&D) design sentiments (making a rule for everything ahead of time is foolish), nWoD, and RISK (the boardgame) mechanics.
I played all of these a lot. And read a boatload of comic books.
Come to think of it early Cortex system games probably had an influence too, though I played significantly less of those.

My most recent work, God-Killer Prophecy is a combination of inspiration from a lot of GMless one-shot games which I have read and played multiple sessions of: The Quiet Year, Palanquin, Vanagard, and some that I have only played once or twice usually at a conventions (Wanderhome, Kingdom, Universalis).
Mechanics are playing card driven, and there isn't a specific game I drew on for that part, but I have played a lot of card games (both boardgames with custom decks and ones with standard playing cards.)
The last ingredient here was reading a boatload of high-fantasy novels.

Creativity is largely a combination of of existing ideas in new ways.

Here are some style of games to look for:
A more tactical game
A more abstract (perhaps strategic) game
A more narrative game
A more simulationist game
A GMless game
A one-shot game
A solo play game
A generic game engine

*there is probably a game out there that does something very close to what you want. An you could find it and learn it with less work. That does not mean that designing your own is a foolish endeavor. Creating something is an experience that you will learn and grow from. It is a meaningful endeavor.

I have been looking around for awhile for systems that would accomplish the feel or theme that I am trying to achieve with my "little" project, I sadly didn't really find one that was ever to my liking on paper, but I tend to be a bit... Perfectionistic, or perhaps picky is the better word, when looking for such things.

So my train of thought which brought me to the decision to go ahead with this was this: If I already have to heavily modify a existing game, then why not just make it myself and learn a few things along the way?

That is not to say that many systems of A: PoT (Annihilation: Pioneers of Tomorrow. Current name of my project) aren't inspired or taken. At this point my "resource folder" probably has the rulebooks of 14 of different systems/games (e.g. Twilight: 2000, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Millennium's End, Cyberpunk RED) that I have read and taken inspiration from to make my own mechanics or from which I took and modified theirs and that doesn't even account for articles, books, magazines, posts et cetera. With this I have certainly found many systems I would like to try out with friends, but never one that I felt was right for what I have in mind with this.

I do also have to add however that, while I read quite a few systems at this point, I am not someone who has played many TTRPGs or played many boardgames for that matter, as I was never fortunate enough to find someone to host sessions nor do I have a friend group that wants to bother with learning entirely new systems. The only reason I think they might be on board with me hosting a campaign on my system at the end is because I drip feed them the ruleset by asking for proof reading or feedback, which means that they won't need to do much reading later on lol.

My only real gameplay experience was with Pathfinder 1st Edition, 2nd Edition and DND 5th Edition and briefly with DND 3.5 (I have mostly played DND5e and PF1e). So a lot of me judging how fun a new mechanic is, is by letting it run through my head or setting encounters for myself that I play alone.

Thank you for your advice however as it did get me to think about a few things and a few more categories to check out.

 

[aramis erak]

That is not to say that many systems of A: PoT (Annihilation: Pioneers of Tomorrow. Current name of my project) aren't inspired or taken. At this point my "resource folder" probably has the rulebooks of 14 of different systems/games (e.g. Twilight: 2000, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Millennium's End, Cyberpunk RED) that I have read and taken inspiration from to make my own mechanics or from which I took and modified theirs and that doesn't even account for articles, books, magazines, posts et cetera. With this I have certainly found many systems I would like to try out with friends, but never one that I felt was right for what I have in mind with this.

Note that there are 5 editions of Twilight 2000:
1st ed is a 1d100 3 difficulties by multiplying skill (×2 easy, ×1 moderate, ×½ hard), with no lifepath
2.0 ed is a 1d10 with the same three difficulties vs skill, and a Traveller-like lifepath.
2.2 ed is 1d20 with 5 difficulties (×4 Simple, ×2 Routine, ×1 Difficult, ×½ Formidable, ×¼ Impossible), , and different combat rules, but otherwise much the same non-combat mechanics as 2.0, and the same general layout and the same illustrations.
Twilight: 2013 was a licensed use of the name, Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and the the Fria Ligan staff seem to call it T2k 3rd ed. It used a d20 dice pool...
T2K 4e (the current one) is a 1d(Att) & 1d(skill) vs 6+/10+ thresholds for 1s/2s count successes, and 6 result spaces: fumble, 0s, 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s. The lifepath there is derived conceptually from T2k 2.x.

Also worth noting: Traveller The New Era is essentially the next minor edition of T2k 2.2... so mechanically T2k 2.3... but in a different setting.

So, when you say you've read Twilight 2000, you really are not specifying which game system... as it's 4½ different game systems.
(Traveller's just as bad about editions - each has a different action resolution paradigm...)