D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Cap'n Kobold]

I feel like you are dancing around the fact that you are literally talking about a ninth level spell. I even linked up the spell everywhere I used the words "ninth level" in the post you quoted.

Yes? I'm not sure what you are getting at?
This, (or any other ability equivalent to a 9th level spell) would be available to the Expanded Martial class at the same level that casters get 9th level spells.

I'm not dancing around talking about an ability equivalent to a 9th level spell. I am literally talking about it. (Although hopefully most of the Expanded Martial class's top-level abilities will be more distinct than close copies of existing spells.)

 

[Micah Sweet]

As someone ( @Micah Sweet ?) said earlier, my first solution would be to put back in all the risks that have been taken out of casting. Any jostling or interruption, even if it doesn't cause damage, and poof - there goes your spell along with your action for the round. Make some spells dangerous to cast, either for the caster or for those around; but don't otherwise nerf them any further. Force casters to roll to aim their ranged spells. And for gawd's sake do away with both ritual casting and at-will cantrips: make spells the limited-use high-risk high-reward option while martials are the energizer bunnies that keep going and going and...

Giving arcane casters fewer hit points and less fighting ability would help too. Playing a caster should sometimes become an exercise in survival rather than being able to stick your face into things.

And even then, don't play beyond about 12th level.

It was me, yeah. Of my two options listed there, option 1 is my preference if I get to do what I want (which I almost never completely get to do, hence option 2).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Sure, I'm not saying it gets one all the way to addressing the thread title. But it feels like it gets us closer?

Especially if most games don't get passed 10th level and/or a sizeable chunk of players want to stop before it's a team of Dr. Strange, Wanda, Thor, and Captain Marvel.

I agree with this. Black Widow caps out at 10th while Superman is a tier 4 character. The goal to me is to have superman progress from tier 1 (good natured do-gooder) to tier 2/3 black Widow ability to tier 4 Man of Steel.

And then do the exact same thing with spell casters

 

[CreamCloud0]

the 'what does batman even need to do when on a team with superman' point reminded me of a superman analysis video,

superman gets put up against deathstroke or some other superthreat so the rest of the team can focus and deal with the burning building full of people or he tackles the army at the front gates while batman sneaks in the back of the enemy base to hack their computers,

point is, DnD needs more parralel problem solving in it's design structure, the wizard can't be both casting fireball or hypnotic pattern on the guard golem and making skill checks to deactivate the magic broadcast tower,

 

[Micah Sweet]

the 'what does batman even need to do when on a team with superman' point reminded me of a superman analysis video,

superman gets put up against deathstroke or some other superthreat so the rest of the team can focus and deal with the burning building full of people or he tackles the army at the front gates while batman sneaks in the back of the enemy base to hack their computers,

point is, DnD needs more parralel problem solving in it's design structure, the wizard can't be both casting fireball or hypnotic pattern on the guard golem and deactivating the magic broadcast tower,

Yeah, its like I said: they need completely different tasks.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

the 'what does batman even need to do when on a team with superman' point reminded me of a superman analysis video,

superman gets put up against deathstroke or some other superthreat so the rest of the team can focus and deal with the burning building full of people or he tackles the army at the front gates while batman sneaks in the back of the enemy base to hack their computers,

point is, DnD needs more parralel problem solving in it's design structure, the wizard can't be both casting fireball or hypnotic pattern on the guard golem and deactivating the magic broadcast tower,

That’s cool but you get into the the Shadowrun/Cyberpunk issue where the team is doing something while the hacker is dealing with Systems and ICE. It’s kind of like splitting the party. It can be difficult for GMs to deal with.

That said, I like the concept of this.

 

[Cadence]

I agree with this. Black Widow caps out at 10th while Superman is a tier 4 character. The goal to me is to have superman progress from tier 1 (good natured do-gooder) to tier 2/3 black Widow ability to tier 4 Man of Steel.

And then do the exact same thing with spell casters

I think this is where I get off the train. I can't reconcile both:

1) Zero-ish to Super-Hero-ish
2) Quick advancement

Superman or Hercules or Thor weren't ever just normal people. And Thor took centuries to get where he is by the time we read about him as a hero. Similarly for the Wizards, I'm not sure I've even read anything magical where someone starts off low-powered and gets to super-high-powered in a short (say even a few years) span of time where it didn't really annoy me. It's one of my big disappointments in the later Black Company books.

I get that other people want it, so I'm not complaining. It's easier for me to jump off of a train after half the trip than it is for them to have to build half the tracks they want!

 

[tetrasodium]

If I’m following the exchange between you and @Cap'n Kobold I don’t see the issue in a conversation where we are talking about closing the gap between martials and casters.

If a fighter can do the equivalent of Time Stop, for example, it’s not stopping a wizard from also casting Time Stop. I think what is being said is the fighter has that only option from a list while the wizard still has their full list of 9th level spells to choose from for the exact situation.

It doesn't stop the wizard from choosing to use their one ninth level spell to cast time stop instead of something else, it means the fighter is going to pop timestop pretty much every adventuring day like action surge & the wizard will still have adventuring days where they end off taking a rest with their ninth level slot unused

Unless they specifically have different tasks in every situation or you go narrative, you really can't have Superman and Batman on the same team.

"The classic cast of the Justice League, from left to right: Green Lantern, the Flash, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman and the Martian Manhunter." I mentioned them because justice league's superman <-> batman power spread sprang to mind, it wasn't until later I realized that doc strange hulk & ironman are on the same team as hawkeye (avengers). Batman is even present & involved in one of superman's well known

Spoiler: rare no holds barred beatdowns of a villain

Batman is even one of the main protagonists in reigning him in after superman has a mental breakdown

Spoiler: conquers the entire world

Yeah, its like I said: they need completely different tasks.

We know how that game plays though & a lot of us have seen it week after week in the past. The hacker shows up early to do hacker stuff with the GM & then goes home or sits idle doing nothing when the rest of the group shows up & runs through the planned adventure. If the rest of the group finishes up being runners & the hacker gets to do something again they do it while the rest of the group goes out for pizza. That is the reason why the ways comics can allow batman to tackle Darkseid to rescue his teammate superman before launching into world of cardboard beatdown while ttrpgs can't

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes? I'm not sure what you are getting at?
This, (or any other ability equivalent to a 9th level spell) would be available to the Expanded Martial class at the same level that casters get 9th level spells.

I'm not dancing around talking about an ability equivalent to a 9th level spell. I am literally talking about it. (Although hopefully most of the Expanded Martial class's top-level abilities will be more distinct than close copies of existing spells.)

spell slots are not like class abilities, those differences impose a lot of things that limit spell slot use.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

It doesn't stop the wizard from choosing to use their one ninth level spell to cast time stop instead of something else, it means the fighter is going to pop timestop pretty much every adventuring day like action surge & the wizard will still have adventuring days where they end off taking a rest with their ninth level slot unused

Yeah, I don’t see that as a problem though. If the wizard chose not to use their 9th level slot it was because they had lots of better options