D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Neonchameleon]

Are you seriously using a world with cartoon physics to illustrate your point?

By the rules of literally any edition of D&D the physical injury and recovery rules for any character from almost any source are closer to cartoon physics than they are to the real world. And real world people can't take a pinch of sulphur and a pinch of bat guano and make a fireball. And dragons can't fly.

So yes I'm using a world with cartoon physics because that is the point. It's pretty clear that from the bits of D&D physics we actually get to see the D&D settings all have cartoony physics.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A bit like D&D! But 20 feet is actually well below world record for long jump…

As I said, real life examples are great. Good deal.

 

[Cadence]

As I said, real life examples are great. Good deal.

World record long jump is 29 ft 4.25 in.
(World record standing long jump is 12 ft 2.75in)

From fiction, what are the standard action heroes like James Bond, the mission impossible people, and John McClane doing?

 

[Micah Sweet]

By the rules of literally any edition of D&D the physical injury and recovery rules for any character from almost any source are closer to cartoon physics than they are to the real world. And real world people can't take a pinch of sulphur and a pinch of bat guano and make a fireball. And dragons can't fly.

So yes I'm using a world with cartoon physics because that is the point. It's pretty clear that from the bits of D&D physics we actually get to see the D&D settings all have cartoony physics.

I don't agree, but if you want to play in a cartoon world where nothing makes any sense (except in the all-important narrative I assume) be my guest. From either of our perspectives, the other person's style is incoherent.

Have a nice day.

 

[Micah Sweet]

World record long jump is 29 ft 4.25 in.
(World record standing long jump is 12 ft 2.75in)

From fiction, what are the standard action heroes like James Bond, the mission impossible people, and John McClane doing?

No idea. I don't watch action movies looking for gamable mechanics, because they're stories and follow narrative rules.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Step one is accepting the central principles of Fantasy and Fiction.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't agree, but if you want to play in a cartoon world where nothing makes any sense (except in the all-important narrative I assume) be my guest. From either of our perspectives, the other person's style is incoherent.

Have a nice day.

And that's a strawman. I don't want to play in a cartoon world where nothing makes any sense. But what I absolutely do not want to do is play in a completely incoherent world where there is no consistency and PCs can be handed a lit stick of dynamite (or explicitly be within a few feet of an entire lit keg of gunpowder (7d6)), Bugs Bunny style, and basically get scorched eyebrows, or they can fall off a Wylie Coyote style cliff and just get up with no broken bones. But at the same time some other random things are being claimed to be "realistic". Even the cartoon world is more coherent than that.

What I actually try and play in is a relatively consistent world using action movie physics rather than real world physics, both for injuries and for the other capabilities of the PCs and NPCs. Setting the entire bar into the middle is the best way I can achieve consistency.

 

[Cadence]

Step one is accepting the central principles of Fantasy and Fiction.

Like principles behind all of Fantasy and Fiction?
Or like principles of particular works of Fantasy and Fiction?

 

[Micah Sweet]

And that's a strawman. I don't want to play in a cartoon world where nothing makes any sense. But what I absolutely do not want to do is play in a completely incoherent world where there is no consistency and PCs can be handed a lit stick of dynamite (or explicitly be within a few feet of an entire lit keg of gunpowder (7d6)), Bugs Bunny style, and basically get scorched eyebrows, or they can fall off a Wylie Coyote style cliff and just get up with no broken bones. But at the same time some other random things are being claimed to be "realistic". Even the cartoon world is more coherent than that.

What I actually try and play in is a relatively consistent world using action movie physics rather than real world physics, both for injuries and for the other capabilities of the PCs and NPCs. Setting the entire bar into the middle is the best way I can achieve consistency.

Well obviously that's not where I want the bar to be, which is why we're not going to meet here. I apologize for the hyperbole, but I am extremely tired of people telling me what I want isn't real or can't be done. Its rude and disrespectful, and I know you wouldn't appreciate it if the positions are reversed (as you've just shown me).

It's like how @Reynard keeps making threads to talk about playstyles with a simulation and/or worldbuilding bent, and all of them keep getting invaded by narrative game fans poo-pooing the premise while pretending they aren't. I am sick of it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

World record long jump is 29 ft 4.25 in.
(World record standing long jump is 12 ft 2.75in)

From fiction, what are the standard action heroes like James Bond, the mission impossible people, and John McClane doing?

I guess, technically, they're stunt men using spring-boards and camera angles...

...but, yes, it's interesting that editions of D&D that have any sort of system for doing long or high jumps, manage to calibrate it the record books, not to what you see in genre, even when the edition otherwise gives realism a pass.

And that's a strawman. I don't want to play in a cartoon world where nothing makes any sense

TBF, 1e lifted magic items from many, many sources, and while I'm sure there could have been a much earlier source for Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments, or the portable hole, the fact they jumped out at me as being in old WB cartoons, and Yellow Submarine, kinda made an impression.