D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Pedantic]

Several people have offered real life examples refuting what I'm saying, and I've accepted those.

But, for example, are you saying that the stunts traditionally associated with wuxia are completely bereft of supernatural aspects?

That's a complicated question with elements of genre, religion, and folk history woven in a difficult to disentangle way. There's a recent costume drama that has a recurring element of murders appearing to be done by supernatural means that are then discovered by the lead characters to have in fact been done using completely explicable material arts techniques, like the Flying Skill.

On the other hand, that same genre has a long established tradition of people who are not experts, can't or never will undergo cultivation and have essentially the same mortal capabilities as people in the modern world. The category of "supernatural or magic" doesn't neatly conceptually align with what's happening.

If you were using "supernatural" specifically to differentiate that class of "mortals" then it fits, but that doesn't align with the in genre understanding of what's happening.

 

[Cadence]

But, for example, are you saying that the stunts traditionally associated with wuxia are completely bereft of supernatural aspects?

I never pictured Yu Shu Lien (Michelle Yeoh's character) in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as being supernatural, for example.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Several people have offered real life examples refuting what I'm saying, and I've accepted those.

But, for example, are you saying that the stunts traditionally associated with wuxia are completely bereft of supernatural aspects?

I'd say some of them are and some them aren't depending on the particulars of the story.

Like if the story expects you to believe the practitioners are magical or mystical in some way, usually the creators will tell you so.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean they're martial characters that do fantastic stunts. Seems pretty appropriate analogue for martial characters in the fantastic lands of D&D.

Fair enough, provided they hit the level for explicitly transcending mundanity in whatever game uses that setting.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I never pictured Yu Shu Lien (Michelle Yeoh's character) in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as being supernatural, for example.

Does she dance on treetops? I haven't seen that movie in a while, and I don't generally watch YouTube videos unless I'm trying to learn how to perform a task.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I never pictured Yu Shu Lien (Michelle Yeoh's character) in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as being supernatural, for example.

I love how in most part it is fairly normal albeit extremely well choreographed action movie sword fight but in the end she just casually flies away.

 

[TwoSix]

Fair enough. While I disagree with it, it's not that surprising.

It does seem somewhat disingenuous, though, to invite folks to provide examples of non-supernatural folks doing supernatural things in stories, since you're operating under a paradigm where you can determine that something/someone is supernatural independent of what the story or context say about it.

I say... well John Henry out raced a steam-powered rock drilling machine.

You say.. I consider John Henry to be supernatural.

And you can do that for literally any example.

It's a rigged game.

I think where this gets confusing is because “supernatural” only exists within a frame of reference, and more specifically a frame of reference where there is an observer watching a work of fiction.

If I go outside right now and suddenly can fly like Superman, that would be an obviously supernatural event to us. But if I really did fly, it isn't supernatural because it actually happened within our universe, it's just our frame of reference of what was naturally capable was simply incorrect right up until that moment.

But we can still view that example as supernatural for us, even though it's just a hypothetical projection of our own world, because all hypothetical examples are merely fiction. We're observing our own (hypothetical) change in reference as to what's actually possible, but as outside observers, so we can classify those abilities as supernatural for our frame of reference of "natural".

 

[Baron Opal II]

I say... well John Henry out raced a steam-powered rock drilling machine.

I would say that he died right after and wasn't first level to begin with.

There's a big span between what we expect characters can do at first level, at twentieth level, and how they scale up in the meantime. The discussion of how supernatural humans are is pretty irrelevant if we are talking about their specific abilities. It is a conceit that the characters will grow in power and ability over time. If an otherwise mundane person learns cloud step at twelfth level, that looks like a supernatural ability to me. The only important part is what happens when the wizard throws a dispel magic at the fighter at that point.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Tarzan can snap a neck of a gorilla, throw a lion, bend iron bars with bare hands, travel at amazing speeds by unerringly jumping from tree to tree, has incredible stealth skills and can easily sneak upon anyone, can talk with apes and communicate with other animals, has superior senses like wild beasts and can take several bullets and continue to function just fine. But in the story he is not supernatural, he is just a normal bloke raised by apes. Unbelievable? You bet, but sometimes stories be like that.

 

[Cadence]

Does she dance on treetops? I haven't seen that movie in a while, and I don't generally watch YouTube videos unless I'm trying to learn how to perform a task.

No bamboo fighting in that one. She is up on the rooftops in this one.