D&D 5E We need more spells known

[Tony Vargas]

All of that and more would be nice, and would have been anytime after 2e. One of 3e's biggest mistakes, that: getting rid of almost all the risks and drawbacks of casting. 4e and 5e have only made it worse...

I'd say "don't get me started," but obviously, I've already started...

Casting getting easier has been an iron law of writing a new edition, it seems. Every edition, limitations on casting disappear. Sometimes that's been accompanied by the power of spells pulling back a little, but rarely enough to actually compensate for it.

5e follows the trend neatly if you measure it from 3.5/PF. Casting is carefree, even compared to the little-more-than-a-formality of Concentration Checks and AoOs and spell component pouches in 3.5 and everyone casts spontaneously and cantrips are at-will, but many spells have been reined in a bit (including a few still using something called 'concentration,' which you can't just maxx out as a skill anymore) and many more are just gone. So far fewer risks and drawbacks, not entirely compensated for by overall spell power being pulled in a bit. Right on-trend.

Or go the other way: give the Wild Mage a few spells she most of the time can't control (i.e. provoke a wild magic surge 90+% of the time) but that can randomly now and then be outstandingly useful...- a true Chaos Mage's dream!

The Chaos Mage in 13 True Ways (for 13th Age, obviously) really goes there in a big way:

Play style: The chaos mage is not for everyone. This is a class for people in what Heinsoo calls the joker demographic, players who enjoy randomness and the bizarre and don’t care much about defined responsibilities and definite plans. There are other players who might be driven crazy just having a chaos mage in the adventuring party.

Every group has one. OK, maybe every-other group. Kinda like fans of the gnome.

And, give them a low-level "spell" whose only effect is to provoke a WMS

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, anyone?

 

[Lanefan]

Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, anyone?

Not familiar with this one.

All I know is that when I was playing a chaotic wizard in 3e my DM wouldn't allow me to research and invent "Wild Spell":

Rationale behind this spell:

There are three basic steps involved in the casting of any spell by any means, best abbreviated as SSS: summon up the magical energy, shape it as desired, and send it on its way. Wild Spell seeks to skip the middle step such that SSS becomes summon, send and see what happens.

Lan-"but he did let me construct an unlimited-use Rod of Wonder, so not all was in vain"-efan

 

[cbwjm]

Not familiar with this one.

All I know is that when I was playing a chaotic wizard in 3e my DM wouldn't allow me to research and invent "Wild Spell":

Rationale behind this spell:

There are three basic steps involved in the casting of any spell by any means, best abbreviated as SSS: summon up the magical energy, shape it as desired, and send it on its way. Wild Spell seeks to skip the middle step such that SSS becomes summon, send and see what happens.

Lan-"but he did let me construct an unlimited-use Rod of Wonder, so not all was in vain"-efan

Reckless dweomer did something similar. Most of the time it was just a wild surge but when cast, you select a spell you know (that was in your spellbook), create a wild surge and then roll on the wild surge table. If you rolled high enough, you would get the spell you wanted but I think most of the time it would just be a wild surge with unexpected results.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Not familiar with this one.

All I know is that when I was playing a chaotic wizard in 3e my DM wouldn't allow me to research and invent "Wild Spell":

Rationale behind this spell:

There are three basic steps involved in the casting of any spell by any means, best abbreviated as SSS: summon up the magical energy, shape it as desired, and send it on its way. Wild Spell seeks to skip the middle step such that SSS becomes summon, send and see what happens.

Lan-"but he did let me construct an unlimited-use Rod of Wonder, so not all was in vain"-efan

I figured Nahal's's what you're alluding to, since it was 1st level and pretymuch exactly that. 2e, Tome of Magic, IIRC.

Had a player who was excessively fond of it...
Didn't help that I'd already established a sort of wild surge like magical side effects rule whenever a lot of magic was used at once...

 

[Gwarok]

I am in a campaign with two Sorcerers. The players like the class and they kick some major ass. There is basically the Fire Sorcerer (Red Draconic Origin) and the Lightening Sorcerer (Tempest Origin). They use about 3-5 spells each - e.g., Fireball, Firebolt, Fly for the Fire Sorcerer. The limited spell list forces the character to focus and the origin provides some more interesting capabilities.

IMO, Sorcerer is for magic users that want to focus. Wizard can be for magic users that want to be spell monkeys - the magical equivalent of skill monkeys.


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Well, that's kinda my point. In fact, if you said you have a sorcerer(or two) in your campaign, and they were combat oriented, I could have told you they chose those spells, because they have to. Basically your description of what they do affirms what I said, not the other way around. If you are ok with those limits, and it seems your players are and are having fun, great. But it's still pretty limiting and I can't really think of why I would want to play one when I could play a wizard or bard who can do pretty much the same thing yet have far, far more versatility.

P.S. - Also I don't doubt they kick some ass. Meta magic feats are very powerful, and in a straight up face melt situation sorcerers can throw down as good if not better than any class, it's just if they focus on that, that's pretty much all they can do and outside of combat they are going to be pretty limited. Which can be fun, but I'd think in a longer campaign it would wear on a player, especially if they are grouped with others that have more options in terms of skills and out of combat utility.

 

[Guest 6801328]

This is not an issue. Different classes are different.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

This is not an issue. Different classes are different.

Thanks for clearing that up! With all this discussion indicating that some people see it is an issue, glad to see a true authority figure could come in and tell it like it is.

Anyways, so that my post actually does something to further the discussion, I've addressed this in my games by giving the sorcerers themed domain spells that they get automatically. That way they get an additional 10 spells (2 for each level up to 5) that is themed to their particular bloodline. I try to mix it up between offensive, defensive, and utility (while maintaining the theme). This allows the players to pick spells more along the ones they might like, without as much worry about choosing the right spells.

 

[purplerook]

Well, that's kinda my point. In fact, if you said you have a sorcerer(or two) in your campaign, and they were combat oriented, I could have told you they chose those spells, because they have to. Basically your description of what they do affirms what I said, not the other way around. If you are ok with those limits, and it seems your players are and are having fun, great. But it's still pretty limiting and I can't really think of why I would want to play one when I could play a wizard or bard who can do pretty much the same thing yet have far, far more versatility.

P.S. - Also I don't doubt they kick some ass. Meta magic feats are very powerful, and in a straight up face melt situation sorcerers can throw down as good if not better than any class, it's just if they focus on that, that's pretty much all they can do and outside of combat they are going to be pretty limited. Which can be fun, but I'd think in a longer campaign it would wear on a player, especially if they are grouped with others that have more options in terms of skills and out of combat utility.

I at least partially agree with you on spell limitations, my first 5e magic using character is going to be a Wizard, because I want to sample from a large palette of spells. However, not everyone want the versatility and or is willing to trade the versatility for being able to do some things really well. Outside of combat, the two sorcerers are actually the 'face' of the party. With high charisma, they do a classic good cop, bad cop (Persuasion and Intimidation respectively). The players and the characters do not let their limited spell selection get in the way of being effective - in or out of combat.

Pick your spell casting class Cleric, Paladin, Warlock. Spell casting is only part of each class. It is a signature ability, but not the only ability. IMO, part of this is building a well rounded party - with the two Sorcerers, there is no wizard, but a cleric and ranger provide supplemental spell casting - and part of this is building a well rounded character - with the two sorcerers, they used origin and background to provide other abilities.

IMO, one of the great things about the 5e framework (race, classes, archtypes and backgrounds) is that you can get a lot of flexibility from character to character.