We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Raith5]

Deviations... from his character?

You mean the one who whined all the time, so much it was a oft commented on at the time? Or the one who quit trying after he failed to lift the X-wing? Or the one that gave into the dark side and maimed his father, the one he was trying to save, before pulling back at the end, you know, after the moment of weaknes?

Goodness, I have no idea where this concept of Luke you guys seem to have came from (maybe the books?), but the actions Luke takes in the OT are not those of the hero you seem to idolize.

My take on Luke is that his whole character arc of the the original series is from hot headed whiny farm boy to jedi knight. That is the whole point/core of that series for me. So I see some tension between The Return if the Jedi Luke and the Last Jedi Luke that needed far more explanation.

I think that is why so many people are up in arms (but I also think the dropped story lines from the Force Awakens is another whole suite of problems).

It seems to me that there is so much interesting stuff here happening off screen/between the films with Luke's dissolution as a Jedi/ Knights of Rhen/the rise of the First order visa vi the republic, and what we do see in the Last Jedi is just not a tedious side note to this interesting stuff.

 

[Morrus]

My take on Luke is that his whole character arc of the the original series is from hot headed whiny farm boy to jedi knight. That is the whole point/core of that series for me. So I see some tension between The Return if the Jedi Luke and the Last Jedi Luke that needed far more explanation.

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

 

[cbwjm]

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

He successfully resisted after the initial fall. Rather than succumb to the darkside and kill his father, Luke turned off his lightsaber and spared him. I think he was stronger than you give him credit for.

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[Morrus]

He successfully resisted after the initial fall. Rather than succumb to the darkside and kill his father, Luke turned off his lightsaber and spared him. I think he was stronger than you give him credit for.

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

 

[cbwjm]

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

How many people have a dad who is one of the top two in an empire of evil? And from memory, Luke only went off after his sister was threatened. Can't have Luke, maybe Leia would suffice.

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[billd91]

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

And yet, he did what his father "the chosen one" couldn't do - he had his epiphany and stepped back from the precipice before he was lost to it. Luke achieved his heroism in Return of the Jedi. You're not giving the character anywhere near enough credit.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with his idealism and drive crashing when his hopes for a New Jedi Order failed because he failed to protect his own nephew, his twin sister's boy, his best friend's son, his mentor's namesake, (how much more powerful emotional baggage can I pile on?) from a manipulative agent of the Dark Side and being witness the awful carnage he unleashed on other innocent people. That's far more information and justification than we got for Anakin going from a cheerful, helpful kid at the end of Phantom Menace to a whiney douche at the beginning of Attack of the Clones.

 

[Morrus]

And yet, he did what his father "the chosen one" couldn't do - he had his epiphany and stepped back from the precipice before he was lost to it.

He didn't do the one thing that one person had done. Sure, his father was weak.

You're not giving the character anywhere near enough credit.

How much credit should I give him? I mean, all anybody is offering is "he didn't kill his dad".

 

[RotGrub]

He was weak to the very end. The Emperor said “give in to your hate!” and Luke was all “OK, duh”. He only survived because Vader had some remaining paternal instinct and saved him. Luke was never strong.

I was hoping The Last Jedi would use the fact that he actually did give in the dark side during that encounter.
Perhaps fear of the dark side within would be a reason for his self isolation.

Of course Luke was strong enough to kick Vader in, he just didn't expect to be on the receiving end of the old mans on-going chain lighting. So to say he was never strong isn't true. Especially in Return of the Jedi.

Then again, Rey was probably soloing Rancors and Vader clones when she was 4 years old. To her, the dark side is really just a pointless machination of a toddler

 

[billd91]

How much credit should I give him? I mean, all anybody is offering is "he didn't kill his dad".

Between movies he went from just being impulsive, rushing off to help his friends (if only Lucas had looked at that behavior as more of a template for Anakin's descent) and getting smacked around for it to being a better planner (his layered contingency plans for rescuing Han) and being someone who walks into the effing lion's den in an attempt to do the impossible - redeem his old man - one of the galaxy's most notorious killers. He resists the temptation again and again, briefly embraces it, realizes what he's doing, and regains control, throwing away his weapon and leaving himself defenseless before his enemy. DAMN! That's some big deal heroic behavior right there. THAT'S why the theater erupted in cheers when I went to see it when it opened. Nobody ever erupted in cheers in other showings of the other movies I had been to before then - not when Luke blew up the Death Star, not when Wedge and Lando blew up Death Star 2, not when Han and company brought down the shield - but when Luke threw away his lightsaber and refused the final temptation.

So I can kind of see complaints about Luke's fall from grace. But I also see the tremendous emotional weight of failing Ben Solo and seeing him turn into Kylo Ren, so I can accept the change even though Luke achieved his hero's journey 30 years prior.

 

[Morrus]

He resists the temptation again and again, briefly embraces it, realizes what he's doing, and regains control, throwing away his weapon and leaving himself defenseless before his enemy.

That's an interesting way to view the same set of events. My version is -- he *immediately* gave into temptation and attacked the Emperor after, like, two sentences, was stopped by his dad, beat his dad to a pulp as a consequence, finally managing to resist executing his beaten dad lying helpless before him, before getting his ass totally kicked with trivial effort by the Emperor. Then his dad suddenly changed sides and saved his ass, otherwise he'd be dead.

 

[Morrus]

Of course Luke was strong enough to kick Vader in, he just didn't expect to be on the receiving end of the old mans on-going chain lighting. So to say he was never strong isn't true.

Huh? No, that's what made him weak. You're, like, reading the exact opposite of the conversation we're having.

Strong in this conversation isn't "good at lightsaber fighting", it's "good at resisting the dark side". He beat Vader with anger. The dark side. He's weak.

 

[RotGrub]

I think I can live with Luke's fate in this movie. Of course, there are were far too many other problems.

When the purple haired aposematic from the Hunger Games made an entrance and unloaded several plot hole turds, I lost interest rather quickly. It was at that point that I realized I wouldn't return to see the Last Jedi as I had intended.

 

[RotGrub]

Huh? No, that's what made him weak. You're, like, reading the exact opposite of the conversation we're having.

Strong in this conversation isn't "good at lightsaber fighting", it's "good at resisting the dark side". He beat Vader with anger. The dark side. He's weak.

I disagree

When it came time to jump off the cliff into the dark side, he resisted by not killing his farther. He lowered his weapon, and that's why the emperor had to kill him. He rested being turned to the dark side. Which is a very different thing than giving in to its temptations.

 

[RotGrub]

Not executing your helpless dad isn’t strong. It’s the normal human condition. How many people do you know who have not executed their dads? I’m at a 100%:0% ratio myself!

Beating him to a pulp before deciding not to execute him? That’s pretty dark side.

It's like, not killing Hitler, who is your father.

 

[Maxperson]

That's an interesting way to view the same set of events. My version is -- he *immediately* gave into temptation and attacked the Emperor after, like, two sentences, was stopped by his dad, beat his dad to a pulp as a consequence, finally managing to resist executing his beaten dad lying helpless before him, before getting his ass totally kicked with trivial effort by the Emperor. Then his dad suddenly changed sides and saved his ass, otherwise he'd be dead.

The throwing away of the light saber was NOT about executing his dad or not, but rather it was to symbolize that the dark side had failed to consume him. Luke had been in the grip of the dark side right before that moment, but had the strength that both Palpatine and Vader did not, and threw off the dark side yoke and proceeded down the path of light. That heroic victory is not lessened by the fact that a fledgling Jedi wasn't as strong in the force or as skilled as as two dark side masters. It's actually enhanced by that.

 

[Morrus]

The throwing away of the light saber was NOT about executing his dad or not, but rather it was to symbolize that the dark side had failed to consume him. Luke had been in the grip of the dark side right before that moment, but had the strength that both Palpatine and Vader did not, and threw off the dark side yoke and proceeded down the path of light. That heroic victory is not lessened by the fact that a fledgling Jedi wasn't as strong in the force or as skilled as as two dark side masters. It's actually enhanced by that.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. My ‘version’ was unduly hard on him — it was an attempt to illustrate how the same set of events can be spun completely differently.

While I still maintain he wasn’t nearly as heroic as often claimed, he certainly isn’t as weak as that narrative suggests.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Oh, don’t get me wrong. My ‘version’ was unduly hard on him — it was an attempt to illustrate how the same set of events can be spun completely differently.

While I still maintain he wasn’t nearly as heroic as often claimed, he certainly isn’t as weak as that narrative suggests.

Absolutely. The "strength" Luke found at the end of RotJ was that he first failed and then turned away. He succumbed to the Dark Side before having his epiphany and rejecting it.

Which is good storytelling, and a good character.

What's confusing to me is the number of people that then think that Luke's moment of weakness that he then rejects with Ben Solo is so abhorrently out of character. It's the same folly he's always shown -- jump, then regret -- only this time it went rather badly for him. This time, the other didn't recant the Dark Side, and instead defeated Luke. Like so many things in TLJ, it takes the events of the OT and spins them around to present essentially the same thing with one crucial difference. Luke has a momentary flirtation with the Dark Side with Vader, but manages to pull back. This act of mercy redeems Vader. With Ben Solo, though, Luke's flirtation with the Dark Side in his immediate rage to strike down his failure doesn't get a happy ending like it did with Vader. It's the same tale, only with a change in the outcome.

Luke survives this, but does so broken. His failure, and it is his failure with him reacting with rage and fear and Dark for a moment, is what so scares him that he runs away and cuts himself off from the force. It why he's so aghast at Rey peering into the Dark Side so readily -- he sees the same power he had so easily tempted by the Dark Side. It all fits into a circle, and none of it is "out of character" for Luke. Unless, of course, you've built up your own set of myths surrounding Luke.

And, as an aside, the "plan" to rescue Han is a travesty of really horrible ideas. That it works can only be laid at the feet of moviemaking and not any genius on Luke's part. He has an inside man, but his plan is to get Leia also inside by imprisoning Chewbacca. Then he gives the droids to Jabba, for reasons, hoping that turns out okay in the end. He can't even tell 3PO the plan at all, so he's of zero help in the plan, yet he's sent. At this point, with Chewie in jail, Lando as a guard, and Leia hidden in the retinue and the droids in service to a powerful underworld figure they can't attack outright, the plan becomes have Leia, by herself, release Han from the carbonite and sneak him out? Where do that leave Chewie and the droids? That failed, Luke marches in and starts a fight. Sure, it all works out in the end, and Luke plays a good part, but no part of that plan, given the skills and resources at play, works out as remotely good. It was a classic 'Jedi walks into a fight and miraculously lucky things happen' plan, which isn't a good one.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Luke was always a whiny hothead who made the wrong choice. Anybody who thinks he was something else really needs to watch the movies again. Luke’s depiction here is perfectly in character.

Luke was a "whiny" hot head until he finally put it all together in Return of the Jedi, which by the way worst title ever? The Jedi didn't even return long enough to make it in the next movie. If you think E4, E5, and E6 Luke are the same I must have been watching different movies.

That is my biggest issue, I can't see how the original 6 movies meant anything at this point since they have torn it all down. All the "heroes" that I cheered for ended up being kind of lame and failures. More sad than anything. Just wish they could have created a new Star Wars saga without needing to burn the old one down. But this is JJ Abrams.

 

[billd91]

But this is JJ Abrams.

Nope. This is continuing to use and reuse characters and settings beyond when their original stories were wrapped up. It was ultimately true of the EU stuff as well in which the characters barely got a chance to reap the benefits of their heroism, just the details were different.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Luke was a "whiny" hot head until he finally put it all together in Return of the Jedi, which by the way worst title ever? The Jedi didn't even return long enough to make it in the next movie. If you think E4, E5, and E6 Luke are the same I must have been watching different movies.

Of course he grew, no one's claiming otherwise, but he didn't become a wise Jedi on-screen in any of them. He was still a hot-headed risk taker in RotJ, as evidenced by the continual set of risks he ran from Jabba's Palace through Endor to the confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. None of that was what a calm, collected, and centered Jedi Master would choose to do.

The argument you're making here doesn't deflect from the fact that Luke of teh OT isn't how you (and others) keep trying to portray him: as someone who would never have a moment of weakness.

That is my biggest issue, I can't see how the original 6 movies meant anything at this point since they have torn it all down. All the "heroes" that I cheered for ended up being kind of lame and failures. More sad than anything. Just wish they could have created a new Star Wars saga without needing to burn the old one down. But this is JJ Abrams.

Torn down?

How so? The Jedi Order is still going on, the New Republic still exists, if badly hurt, and there's still a chance that the son of Han and Leia will turn back to the light (I'm not sure what I hope about this, honestly). Did you really want a trilogy where everything was as awesome as you imagined it, with Han and Leia being happily-ever-aftering and Luke being a kick-ass Jedi Master at the head of a new Jedi Order? What, praytell, do you think would the conflict be? With all of the superheroes around, what could possibly function as a suitable crisis? Invasion from outside the galaxy (obviously EU sarcasm is obvious)?

To tell a hero's story, the hero has to fail at some point. They have to face that failure and overcome. We can't have the cast of the OT be perfect from the get go, they needed to be in crisis to tell a compelling story. Anything else leaves them as utterly fake. So, Han's crisis is his son. He rises to the occasion by reaching out to Ben, and dies for it (and I'm pretty sure he knew that was a likely outcome, so double points). Leia's crisis is the Republic. It has to be in jeopardy for her to have something to fight for. She rises to the occasion and doesn't back down. Luke's crisis is himself, as it's always been. And he rises to that occasion and shows that he's truly earned the title Jedi Master only at the end of TLJ, where he accepts himself finally.

So, no, the OT isn't burned down, because what was built in the OT wasn't those institutions, but rather characters -- characters who were and are flawed, and yet still show up for the job. I love Luke far more now than I ever did, because he was flawed but still showed up. Han, too. His death coming from walking towards pain and danger instead of running away was awesome -- a really summation of the movement he started in E4. And Leia, Leia is the least changing of all of them. She always fought, and she's still fighting, and I am deeply saddened that we'll never see the culmination of her arc the way it should have been. I have a feeling it was moving towards her giving the fight to others to carry, to finally resting. Also, I really, really hate that Google thinks Leia is misspelled. Everything the OT built is here, and these characters cannot breathe the honest and painful way they do without it. Don't think that the OT is some institution of victory or happily-ever-after because it's not. It's about characters and their journey, not their destination. This new trilogy is closing the journeys of those characters, and providing endings they earned along the way.