We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Water Bob]

Is there any decent background on how the New Republic failed so spectacularly to prevent the rise of the First Order? One expects that after the death of the emporer the Empire was shattered, and the New Republic would have asserted itself as the dominant power and would have, over several decades, overcome the bastions of the Empire.

Yes sir. The background is quite extensive, found in the new novels and the books like the Visual Dictionaries and such.

The short version: The war came to a head, and the last battle was fought over Jakku. The Empire--what was left of it--retreated to the Unknown Lands after signing a strict peace treaty. The Empire was, by the treaty, no longer able to build weapons or wage war.

Still, just like in real life, there are sympathizers with the old ways. There are Liberals and Conservatives, though they're named differently. Some still believe in the Empire and think, with Palpatine and Vader gone, that the Empire is the best way to continue, politically, without the stink of evil and the Sith. A "good" Empire.

Of course, those who wanted a return to the old ways won out, and the New Republic was established. But, even amongst the New Republic, some believed (Leia) in a strong military. Remember, in the prequels, it was established that the Old Republic did not have a standing army. There was a small policing force, and there were the Jedi--the guardians of peace in the Galaxy. That's what Attack of the Clones was all about--Palpatine raising an Army for the Republic.

Others went against Leia and Ackbar, wanting to go back to how it was with the Old Republic. Mon Mothma was among these people. These people argued that the New Republic would never truly replace the Old unless the military was disbanded.

Mon Mothma's side won out. The large military built up by the Rebel Alliance was disbanded by 90%. Only a small, peace keeping force was retained.

In TFA, most of this peace-keeping force was destroyed when the capital system of Hosnian Prime was destroyed.

Part of the New Republic structure was that the capital would change between worlds from time to time. That's why the capital was no longer Coruscant. It was thought that the Empire had infected that place, and it would be better for the New Republic to start fresh with a new, rotating, capital.



Still, the New Republic had its Empire sympathizers--those who found it was politically incorrect to announce their views. Even New Republic senators secretly wanted a return to the Empire sans Palpatine and the Sith.

The First Order sprang out of the desire of these people (Palpatines New Order morphed into the First Order). Secretly, senators and influential people funneled funs to the First Order, growing out of the old Empire in the Unknown Lands.

For 30 years, the First Order grew, secretly constructing ships and building upon the old Empire.

Leia heeds the rumors she hears of the First Order (this is covered in the book, Bloodline) and goes to the New Republic to martial their forces in anticipation of this threat. But, not everyone feels the way Leia does, and the New Republic does not officially take a stand against the First Order.

Instead, some in the New Republic secretly aid Leia in forming a political faction, the Resistance Against The First Order. Leia contacts those she has known through the years from the Rebellion, and the Reistance is provided with older, Rebel surplus gear.

The Resistance is in the open and is a greatly inferior force than is the First Order. The First Order has been quite secretive, but recently, especially in TFA and TLJ (which takes place immediately after Episode VII), is beginning to reveal itself more and more--especially now that the New Republic capital and fleet had been destroyed by the super-weapon from Starkiller base.

Of course, at the end of TLJ, the Reistance is just a few dozen people and a handful of ships.

 

[tomBitonti]

Well, the Union winning the Civil War didn't stop the south from generating the Klu Klux Klan and other racist terrorist groups. They've kept resurging fading and resurging again for 150 years. And even the eradication of Jim Crow laws and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 didn't stop places from interfering with voting rights and trying to impose other versions of segregation.

We beat the Nazis in 1945 and yet here they are demonstrating in American cities in 2017.

And those things have been occurring within far smaller spaces and societies than the events that have been transpiring in Star Wars. The Republic/Empire was made up of some fuzzy number of worlds that number at least 2000 (considering 2000 joined a petition to get Palpatine to relinquish emergency powers). That's a lot of worlds and a lot of territory for an insurgent group to try to administer even if they did manage to hack the head off the snake controlling the Empire. The Empire, by comparison, had it easier. Palpatine kept the structure of the Republic intact for a good 20 years after making the shift from Republic to Empire - by the time the Rebellion won at Endor, all of that structure's inertia would have been tilted against them - mainly local governors controlling the apparatus of fear and oppression and the Imperial military (and military industrial complex).

In none of the historical cases does the losing side ever challenge the winners. I can see pockets of resistance, sure, but for the Rebellion to stall out then fall backwards?

The example that seems to fit is the resurgence of Germany between WWI and WWII, but using that as a model would imply serious inattention by the New Republic.

Besides the Starkiller Attack, The other major event of significance, perhaps, is the failure of the New Jedi Order. I can weave a failure story out of that, but it really paints Luke Skywalker and the other leadership in a bad way.

What is striking to me how much the New Republic survivors seem to be portrayed as underdogs, and almost as a new rebellion. Which, even with a few First Order victories, ought not to be.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Derren]

We beat the Nazis in 1945 and yet here they are demonstrating in American cities in 2017.

Yet we do not have Nazis driving around with several aircraft carriers.
The entire idea that the First Order poses a legitimate military threat to the Republic is silly. Even when you follow the reasoning that the republic only had a small police force which all got wiped out in EP7 (because a police force does not have to actively police anything apparently), the First Order does not have a economy to speak off while the Republic could simply rebuild ships. A planet could easily field enough fighters and bombers that the First Order could not approach it, or would suffer devastating losses.

But instead we somehow are to believe that the FO has a huge military force out of nowhere and the entire Republic is defenceless because one system blew up.

 

[billd91]

Yet we do not have Nazis driving around with several aircraft carriers.

It’s not like the Nazis had whole other worlds to fall back on for supply, manpower, massive industrial capacity. The remnants of the Empire, realistically, did.

But instead we somehow are to believe that the FO has a huge military force out of nowhere and the entire Republic is defenceless because one system blew up.

Why would you think the FO’s military is out of nowhere? I’m assuming there are parts of the Empire, loyal worlds, that probably never gave up and are the core of the FO and have been for 30 years.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The appeal to the authority of the masses is a weak argument to dismiss any kind of criticism for this movie. There is genuine criticism of the film that doesn't come from hardcore fans or people with an agenda.

1) it wasn't an appeal to popularity nor an appeal to authority. Citing the definition of a well known term (character development) is neither. Mixing and matching words from informal fallacies doesn't actually make the argument you're commenting on a fallacy.

2) I wasn't commenting on genuine criticism. You can not like those character arcs all you want, what you cannot do is deny they exist. My post wasn't addressing a criticism, it was correcting a statement that those character development arcs didn't exist. And, given the poster I responded to redirected from no character development to an argument that he felt he didn't get enough backstory, it seems entirely appropriate for me to have done so.

3) I'm fine that you didn't like the movie; there's less competition for the good seats when I go back for another viewing.

 

[Morrus]

Yet we do not have Nazis driving around with several aircraft carriers.

We don't have *any* of the things in Star Wars.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yet we do not have Nazis driving around with several aircraft carriers.
The entire idea that the First Order poses a legitimate military threat to the Republic is silly. Even when you follow the reasoning that the republic only had a small police force which all got wiped out in EP7 (because a police force does not have to actively police anything apparently), the First Order does not have a economy to speak off while the Republic could simply rebuild ships. A planet could easily field enough fighters and bombers that the First Order could not approach it, or would suffer devastating losses.

But instead we somehow are to believe that the FO has a huge military force out of nowhere and the entire Republic is defenceless because one system blew up.

The Republic had demilitarized. They maintained only a peace-keeping force (which is very different from a police force), and that was of sufficient size and power to check the 1st Order. Probably not because it could face the 1st Order, but because it could delay then and slow them sufficiently to allow for the rest of the Republic to gear up on a war footing. Much like the US Pacific forces during WWII -- a conventional attack wouldn't be decisive, and the size discrepancy meant that a conventional attack would be eventual suicide.

So, instead, the 1st Order initiated an overwhelming surprise attack and destroyed both the core Republic government and the Republic fleet. This removed all obstacles to their immediate military plans, and they were able to initiate a widespread attack to seize critical planets and prevent any kind of organized resistance (small r). Their hate on for the Resistance (big R) is likely due to the fact that the Resistance had been effectively running operations against them for years in a low intensity war, slowing their efforts and stoking political resistance to their plans.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It’s not like the Nazis had whole other worlds to fall back on for supply, manpower, massive industrial capacity. The remnants of the Empire, realistically, did.

Which would be why your example is just so terribly bad, yeah? Doesn't fit at all.

The clear example their following from history for the 1st Order is the nazis, though, from Snoke as Furher to the iconography to the plot, but it's the rise of the Nazis from WWI Germany, not post WWII.

Of course, that breaks down as a broader comparison because WWI Germany was nothing like the Empire, which was itself more or less 'what would have happened if the Nazis had won WWII, but also with magic and laser swords?"

 

[tomBitonti]

The Republic had demilitarized. They maintained only a peace-keeping force (which is very different from a police force), and that was of sufficient size and power to check the 1st Order. Probably not because it could face the 1st Order, but because it could delay then and slow them sufficiently to allow for the rest of the Republic to gear up on a war footing. Much like the US Pacific forces during WWII -- a conventional attack wouldn't be decisive, and the size discrepancy meant that a conventional attack would be eventual suicide.

So, instead, the 1st Order initiated an overwhelming surprise attack and destroyed both the core Republic government and the Republic fleet. This removed all obstacles to their immediate military plans, and they were able to initiate a widespread attack to seize critical planets and prevent any kind of organized resistance (small r). Their hate on for the Resistance (big R) is likely due to the fact that the Resistance had been effectively running operations against them for years in a low intensity war, slowing their efforts and stoking political resistance to their plans.

A part of all of this which is silly is keeping the fleet all in one place. Regardless, that makes the destruction of SKB not a victory at all. Locally it was a win, but overall it was a loss as SKB had achieved one of it’s primary objectives.

I’m thinking the failure to present the scope of the loss in FA is a reason for discontent with the new movie. I myself have a problem with the New Republic demilitarizing so quickly, given the amount of Empire which would have remained after RotJ.

A consistence problem: A demilitarized New Republic wouldn’t be a strong driver of military sales as presented in LJ.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Joker]

1) it wasn't an appeal to popularity nor an appeal to authority. Citing the definition of a well known term (character development) is neither. Mixing and matching words from informal fallacies doesn't actually make the argument you're commenting on a fallacy.

2) I wasn't commenting on genuine criticism. You can not like those character arcs all you want, what you cannot do is deny they exist. My post wasn't addressing a criticism, it was correcting a statement that those character development arcs didn't exist. And, given the poster I responded to redirected from no character development to an argument that he felt he didn't get enough backstory, it seems entirely appropriate for me to have done so.

3) I'm fine that you didn't like the movie; there's less competition for the good seats when I go back for another viewing.

You said that his definition of character development is different than what most people think it is. Which is not only wrong but an appeal to a majority opinion.

We actually can deny their arcs exist because we are asked in this movie to follow the Hero's Journey of Rey, Ben and Luke but without the middle part of the adventure. Simply touching on or glossing over important events in a character's experience is not real development. All good stories have at their core heroes which undergo real transformation because of real life-threatening (this can be emotionally or psychologically life-threatening) events.
This just does not happen in The Last Jedi. The only event which comes close is Snoke's confrontation with Rey and Ben. And even then the movie just speeds past it like it wasn't important.
The amount and quality of character development in this movie is on par with the development of Optimus Prime in the Transformers movies. Yeah, he changes a bit and is roughed up here and there but there's no great transformation in his character. No pun intended.

I'll allow your appeal to the masses if I'm allowed an appeal to authority. I've read close to two dozen of the positive critiques from the top critics compiled on Rottentomatoes. Those critics, when illuminating the cons of the movie, cite the lack of character development and pacing problems as their biggest dislikes. While it's unfair to say that there's no character development, you really have to go looking for it like people went looking for plot and meaning in Prometheus.

Enjoy the extra armrest.