We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Ovinomancer]

I’ll agree to all of that. I still think it all just confuses the narrative, in that even thought it is a substantial victory (and we feel that NR “won” at the end of FA), the NR really had only changed an overwhelming defeat to a defeat. Then in LJ, the NR situation doesn’t convey well. But I thing we agree there.

Pulling together the overall arc, it rather seems that either the NR was negligent, or the galaxy as a whole didn’t sufficiently care. The first undercuts the heroic arcs of the major characters of movies IV-VI, while the second makes for a meh story: why should I care about a galaxy that ignores a clear threat?

Thx!
TomB

Okay, let's put this in film perspective. The Rebels blow up the Death Star. This is a major accomplishment. But they then start ESB in hiding and having to run from the Empire again, so it's about the same level of victory with the winners of that battle still desperately clinging onto a losing war. Heck, even when they blow up the 2nd Death Star in RotJ, there's still a major confrontation at Jakku to finally end the Galactic Civil War.

So, it's not really something new to the franchise, is it?

The OT gets so much of a pass on these same issues because we're all so steeped in the massive amount of backstory that's seeped out over the year, especially in our RPG playing and novel reading. But, based on the films alone, the same sins that are being hammered on for TLJ and TFA were also all over the OT. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for criticism, but let's all step back a moment and consider that we don't currently have nearly the depth of additional materials and decades to absorb them into our mental pictures with the new films as we did with the OT. I recall taking a huge amount on faith when watching the OT - those things just were, and I was excited when I found out even more from sources outside the films. But, since we don't have the cultural depth of information accumulated over decades of fandom, we're holding the same things up to scrutiny in the new films that we adore (because of the cultural depth) in the OT. That's not exactly being fair.

 

[Water Bob]

I love the porgs!

They crack me up. Especially that scene with Chewie.

I'll admit, going into the movie, I thought, from the previews, that the porgs were going to be intelligent. Kinda a nod to Hoojibs from the Marvel Star Wars comics of the 1980's.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So I did not read any of the new novels or comics that coincide with the new films. This thread made me look into a few things out of curiosity.

All I'll say is that the entire situation of how the First Order rose to prominence is pretty clearly described. Both within the fiction and also what inspired the writers. It's pretty well developed.

Now, I don't feel I needed to absolutely know any of this material in order to enjoy the films (because most of it seems along the lines of what I would have expected), but it's all there for those who care enough to know about these things. I certainly wouldn't have minded if a little bit more of this stuff made it into the films (apparently some of this stuff was in, but got cut for time and pacing), but again, I don't know if it would have been necessary.

So the material is out there for those that want it. Even just the Wikipedia page on the New Order explains things pretty clearly.

 

[Water Bob]

Yeah, I'm reading the third Poe Dameron book (Marvel), and in the first story, the First Order is regarded as nothing more than another militant group, not unlike a mercenary outfit or a criminal organization. Of course, this story is set early, before Starkiller base was revealed.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So I did not read any of the new novels or comics that coincide with the new films. This thread made me look into a few things out of curiosity.

All I'll say is that the entire situation of how the First Order rose to prominence is pretty clearly described. Both within the fiction and also what inspired the writers. It's pretty well developed.

Now, I don't feel I needed to absolutely know any of this material in order to enjoy the films (because most of it seems along the lines of what I would have expected), but it's all there for those who care enough to know about these things. I certainly wouldn't have minded if a little bit more of this stuff made it into the films (apparently some of this stuff was in, but got cut for time and pacing), but again, I don't know if it would have been necessary.

So the material is out there for those that want it. Even just the Wikipedia page on the New Order explains things pretty clearly.

Heh, just read that wiki article. Nice to know that I picked up on all of the intentional references to the rise of Nazi Germany in the story. The ODESSA bit fits as well (duh, it being clearly cited as inspiration), but I'll admit to not catching that bit.

 

[wicked cool]

Simple observation. Seems that merchandise sales are down compared to Awakens and tickets sales have also slowed. For the defenders of this movie is that a bad sign

Id like to make a observation of fan backlash
Mass effect Andomeda-video game produced by EA. Poor player ratings killed this beloved and money making franchise(I would argue one of the reasons EA bought Bioware). Ton of money sunk into this and yet fans complained so much that no DLC was made for this game. If which yes I believe is a stretch this movie doesn't make as much money as expected could this hurt the 3 movie spinoff that Johnson was rumored to helm.

 

[tomBitonti]

Okay, let's put this in film perspective. The Rebels blow up the Death Star. This is a major accomplishment. But they then start ESB in hiding and having to run from the Empire again, so it's about the same level of victory with the winners of that battle still desperately clinging onto a losing war. Heck, even when they blow up the 2nd Death Star in RotJ, there's still a major confrontation at Jakku to finally end the Galactic Civil War.

So, it's not really something new to the franchise, is it?

The OT gets so much of a pass on these same issues because we're all so steeped in the massive amount of backstory that's seeped out over the year, especially in our RPG playing and novel reading. But, based on the films alone, the same sins that are being hammered on for TLJ and TFA were also all over the OT. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for criticism, but let's all step back a moment and consider that we don't currently have nearly the depth of additional materials and decades to absorb them into our mental pictures with the new films as we did with the OT. I recall taking a huge amount on faith when watching the OT - those things just were, and I was excited when I found out even more from sources outside the films. But, since we don't have the cultural depth of information accumulated over decades of fandom, we're holding the same things up to scrutiny in the new films that we adore (because of the cultural depth) in the OT. That's not exactly being fair.

Sure. To me, the difference is that in episode IV, the rebels are a rag-tag group, clearly fighting with limited resources against a dominant opponent.

In episodes VII-VIII, the New Republic is dominant, and ought not to have quite as limited resources as in episode IV.

At the end of episode VIII, the NR has morphed back into the Rebellion. That feels very very odd to me. I can see that it fits the original Rebellion against Power theme of the initial movies, but it seems lame that that the only theme that can be used. In a way, it contradicts the theme of "Businesses Enriching Themselves on Conflict", which is present at the Casino, in that the NR only has a niche as rebels against oppression -- they can only achieve their best form after allowing an oppressive power to gain hold. That problem maps to the movies themselves, as they give folks a good feeling -- heroism by fighting oppression -- only by putting the First Order back in charge.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Water Bob]

And....when are we going to see anything about the Knights of Ren?

In that same vein, what happened to Black Squadron from TFA? TLJ picks up immediately after TFA. Where is Temmin Wexley and the others?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Heh, just read that wiki article. Nice to know that I picked up on all of the intentional references to the rise of Nazi Germany in the story. The ODESSA bit fits as well (duh, it being clearly cited as inspiration), but I'll admit to not catching that bit.

Yeah, the parallels there were pretty clear, and I thought that was interesting. I had no idea really about the "in world" history of the First Order. But it seems that their slow and steady rise to prominence is pretty clearly explained.

EDITED TO ADD: Apparently there was a smear campaign against Leia, labeling her the "daughter of Darth Vader" which damages her credibility, and which shifts some people away from teh Republic. That is a great concept and I wish that had made it into the film. Even if it was only one line of dialogue near the end to explain why no one answered the cal for help. Something like "It seems that there aren't many people out there willing to risk obliteration by the First Order to try and help Darth Vader's daughter."

That would have been cool.

Simple observation. Seems that merchandise sales are down compared to Awakens and tickets sales have also slowed. For the defenders of this movie is that a bad sign

Id like to make a observation of fan backlash
Mass effect Andomeda-video game produced by EA. Poor player ratings killed this beloved and money making franchise(I would argue one of the reasons EA bought Bioware). Ton of money sunk into this and yet fans complained so much that no DLC was made for this game. If which yes I believe is a stretch this movie doesn't make as much money as expected could this hurt the 3 movie spinoff that Johnson was rumored to helm.

Meh it's not a bad sign for me. The sales could tank or multiply, my feelings about the movie will remain the same. I don't feel like I am a "defender of this movie" but I suppose lots of folks would label me such.

As for the potential effect of bad word of mouth....sure, that can always affect a movie. I don't know if it would be enough to really impact this one, though, even though it seems to be artificially elevated by certain segments of the fanbase. And I don't know if a video game is the best comparison to a film.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Simple observation. Seems that merchandise sales are down compared to Awakens and tickets sales have also slowed. For the defenders of this movie is that a bad sign

You misread. Toy shipments are down, not toy sales. Jus a supply side issue, largely influenced by the Toys'r'us bankruptcy.

And ticket sales were gangbusters Monday, despite so many students still being in school.

Id like to make a observation of fan backlash
Mass effect Andomeda-video game produced by EA. Poor player ratings killed this beloved and money making franchise(I would argue one of the reasons EA bought Bioware). Ton of money sunk into this and yet fans complained so much that no DLC was made for this game. If which yes I believe is a stretch this movie doesn't make as much money as expected could this hurt the 3 movie spinoff that Johnson was rumored to helm.

That's a fair comparison, except that TLJ complaints seem to be from a very vocal minority. Exit polling at theaters shows it trending right alongside TFA and R1. IMBD had a good fan score until news of such hit the wires and then it was bombarded by negative, mostly 1 star, reviews. Outside of Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB, the film seems to be doing very well. Disney is taking in big bucks so far and it's hewing closely to anticipations, so I figure they'll keep making money by making more.

EA, however, can't stand a product that doesn't more and will kill a line or even a studio that's otherwise successful over a single mediocre performance. And Andromeda didn't bomb, it just didn't do as well as the previous titles. For a different distributor, it would have gone in the win column.