We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Ryujin]

Sure, but then she'd have to hold it like a staff and that would cost her fingers. She isn't using staff styles with her fighting. She's using sword styles, which she has no training in.

A staff is not always held in the middle.

 

[Water Bob]

Something to ponder....

Have you guys noticed, in both TLJ and TFA, that the large capital ships don't seem to have near as many turbo laser batteries as listed in the various specs provided about Star Wars capital ships in the past? This Wookiepedia Page on the Imperial Star Destroyer shows it having 60 Heavy Turbo Lasers among other weaponry.

Is this new era of ship design, or maybe the First Order only, using a doctrine of fewer, but more powerful turret weapons?

Look at Poe's escape in TFA. We've discussed this before, but I've never been convinced because the movie tends to indicate that Poe blew out all of the ships turbo lasers on its ventral side.

Now, again, in TLJ, he does the same, this time on the dorsal side, to protect the bombers.

One X-Wing destroying all gun turrets, pretty quickly, on a firing arc of a Star Destroyer and another capital ship?

It's hard to believe, but that's what the films tend to show.

 

[OB1]

No. They died(and very stupidly in the movie) because Sidius had plot armor.

So did Anakin, Ben and Yoda. It's a prequel so we know they lived. Why then would the author make the choice to have Palpatine go up against 4 Masters? Perhaps to show how powerful Siddious was? You seem to be throwing out what the text of the film is telling you because it conflicts with your ideas for how things should work.

Nothing about that scene implied he was stronger than they were...

You mean besides the fact that he slaughtered them without breaking a sweat? (Was there any sign of violence at all doctor? You mean besides the dead body?)

That's the same reason he survived when Mace had his saber a fraction of an inch from his neck. Only a plot victim of a master would be so stupid as to pull back for a swing when all he had to do was move the saber forward an inch.

Mace was about to break the code he had dedicated his entire life to. Maybe he was stealing himself to the task, or maybe he was giving Siddius the chance to defend himself with force lightening so that it wouldn't be straight up killing an unarmed opponent. I can think of a thousand reasons why Mace pulled back his sword first. Again, why not engage with the film by assuming that the choices made were done so deliberately by the author instead of assuming they are mistakes?

Also, you keep comparing Jedi training to a martial art, but please tell me the form I can study so that I can deflect bullets with a sword while blindfolded 30 seconds after being instructed to "let go your conscious self and act on instinct.", "You're eyes can deceive you, don't trust them," and "Stretch out with your feelings" None of that will work for me because I don't have the Force. Luke and Rey do, so they can perform that superhuman ability with nothing more than the instruction to reach out and trust the force, which they both had.

The Jedi Order spent decades training pupils not to make them powerful, but to keep them under control. To indoctrinate them into a rigid control structure, inoculate them from the dark side and to ensure the supremacy of the Republic. That's why there was a program to identify and indoctrinate all force sensitives from an early age. The Jedi Order was the Avengers and the X-Men and the Superhero Registration Act and the Mutant Registry and the Sakovia Accords all wrapped into one to serve the Republic. And for 1,000 years, with the Republic in full control of them, they were the only super power. Bring a Nuke, I mean Jedi, to a negotiation and the opposing side has no choice but to capitulate. Unless they have a Nuke, I mean Sith, of their own.

 

[Maxperson]

Y, Y does Luke get a pass but Rey doesn’t? It’s inXplicable.

People tend to accuse others of their own faults, so you need to look to yourself for that answer.

 

[Maxperson]

A staff is not always held in the middle.

Yep. Sometimes it's held a quarter of the way down, which would still cost fingers on a lightsaber.

 

[Maxperson]

So did Anakin, Ben and Yoda. It's a prequel so we know they lived. Why then would the author make the choice to have Palpatine go up against 4 Masters? Perhaps to show how powerful Siddious was? You seem to be throwing out what the text of the film is telling you because it conflicts with your ideas for how things should work.

If he was trying to show how powerful Sidious was, he failed abysmally. Having him cut down Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp doesn't show those things. Now, had those masters fought competently and he beat them, THEN he'd look powerful.

You mean besides the fact that he slaughtered them without breaking a sweat? (Was there any sign of violence at all doctor? You mean besides the dead body?)

I can slaughter a bunch of ants without breaking a swear, too. That doesn't make me look like world class body builder.

Mace was about to break the code he had dedicated his entire life to. Maybe he was stealing himself to the task, or maybe he was giving Siddius the chance to defend himself with force lightening so that it wouldn't be straight up killing an unarmed opponent. I can think of a thousand reasons why Mace pulled back his sword first. Again, why not engage with the film by assuming that the choices made were done so deliberately by the author instead of assuming they are mistakes?

If you have to stretch this far to find an excuse for Mace's stupidity, the movie has failed. Besides, the Jedi were out to exterminate the Sith for centuries. There was no conflict of the sorts you mentioning. No code he was breaking. He looked steeled as hell. And they don't give Sith the chance to defend themselves. If you can think of a thousand reasons, come up with one that makes sense so I can see it.

Also, you keep comparing Jedi training to a martial art, but please tell me the form I can study so that I can deflect bullets with a sword while blindfolded 30 seconds after being instructed to "let go your conscious self and act on instinct.", "You're eyes can deceive you, don't trust them," and "Stretch out with your feelings" None of that will work for me because I don't have the Force. Luke and Rey do, so they can perform that superhuman ability with nothing more than the instruction to reach out and trust the force, which they both had.

The Jedi Order spent decades training pupils not to make them powerful, but to keep them under control. To indoctrinate them into a rigid control structure, inoculate them from the dark side and to ensure the supremacy of the Republic. That's why there was a program to identify and indoctrinate all force sensitives from an early age. The Jedi Order was the Avengers and the X-Men and the Superhero Registration Act and the Mutant Registry and the Sakovia Accords all wrapped into one to serve the Republic. And for 1,000 years, with the Republic in full control of them, they were the only super power. Bring a Nuke, I mean Jedi, to a negotiation and the opposing side has no choice but to capitulate. Unless they have a Nuke, I mean Sith, of their own.

This is a Strawman, since I've not once compared Jedi training to a martial art. I have said that there would be some skill training for the force to augment, though.

 

[Ryujin]

Yep. Sometimes it's held a quarter of the way down, which would still cost fingers on a lightsaber.

That's a balance thing, which isn't an issue for a lightsaber

 

[Maxperson]

That's a balance thing, which isn't an issue for a lightsaber

At which point you are using it like a sword!

Let's face it. When she was practicing out there, she wasn't using it like a staff. She was going through sword forms.

 

[Ovinomancer]

At which point you are using it like a sword!

Let's face it. When she was practicing out there, she wasn't using it like a staff. She was going through sword forms.

I've decided to read your posts on this matter in the voice of the comic book guy.

 

[OB1]

If he was trying to show how powerful Sidious was, he failed abysmally. Having him cut down Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp doesn't show those things. Now, had those masters fought competently and he beat them, THEN he'd look powerful.

I'm not saying there weren't better ways to show this, but the intent was clear. There is no reason to believe that Lucas intended the scene to show how weak three Masters who we barely knew were. The only fair read of the scene is that it was meant to show that Sidious was powerful.

I can slaughter a bunch of ants without breaking a swear, too. That doesn't make me look like world class body builder.

No, but it does make it clear that you are far more powerful than the ants.

If you have to stretch this far to find an excuse for Mace's stupidity, the movie has failed. Besides, the Jedi were out to exterminate the Sith for centuries. There was no conflict of the sorts you mentioning. No code he was breaking. He looked steeled as hell. And they don't give Sith the chance to defend themselves. If you can think of a thousand reasons, come up with one that makes sense so I can see it.

Anakin makes this explicit in his dialogue in the scene. Mace says he's too dangerous to be left alive, Anakin says it's not the Jedi way to kill an defenseless person. Again, I agree that Lucas failed in execution, but that doesn't mean we can't understand what the intent was. In this case, that Anakin attacked Mace to prevent him from killing Sidious.

This is a Strawman, since I've not once compared Jedi training to a martial art. I have said that there would be some skill training for the force to augment, though.

Fair enough, I missatributed that to you or overstated your position. Allow me to restate. I'd be interested in hearing your counter argument to the point I intended to make rather than make semantic arguments that don't push the discussion forward.

Luke is able to deflect blaster bolts 30 seconds after being instructed to "let go your conscious self and act on instinct.", "You're eyes can deceive you, don't trust them," and "Stretch out with your feelings". The Force guided his hands to accomplish something that even someone with great skill in melee combat couldn't accomplish (see Grevious in RotS). Why is it a stretch that when Rey "let go her conscious self and acted on instinct" that the force couldn't have helped her to parry Kylo's light saber strikes? She is instructed earlier in the film to let the force guide her, and then in the fight she does exactly that. Prior to that moment, it isn't clear if Kylo is trying to defeat her or is merely testing her to see if she is worthy of becoming his pupil. She is acting on the instinct of her staff training. He knows the Force is strong in her. He tells her explicitly that she needs a teacher. She then remembers what she was taught, same as Luke did when making his trench run against the Death Star.

In ESB, Yoda admonishes Luke that he must learn control. The Jedi Order spent decades training pupils not to make them powerful, but to teach them control of the power that had been given them. To indoctrinate them into a rigid structure for using that power, inoculate them from the dark side and to ensure the supremacy of the Republic. That's why there was a program to identify and indoctrinate all force sensitives from an early age. The Jedi Order was the Avengers and the X-Men and the Superhero Registration Act and the Mutant Registry and the Sakovia Accords all wrapped into one to serve the Republic. And for 1,000 years, with the Republic in full control of them, they were the only super power. Bring a Nuke, I mean Jedi, to a negotiation and the opposing side has no choice but to capitulate. Unless they have a Nuke, I mean Sith, of their own. Obi-Wan and Luke both learn that the only true way to serve the force is through self sacrifice, not through trying to control the outcome of things. That's what being a true Jedi Master is, and what the Jedi Order of the Prequels had forgotten.