We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[Maxperson]

The weird thing is that you're willing to invent scenes that didn't exist to create a fictional Luke narrative in your mind, and refuse to acknowledge scenes that *do* exist which contradict the Rey narrative in your mind.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge it, since I have acknowledged it in this discussion. I'm saying that it's not training, since she shouldn't know those moves yet. In fact, if the force is what gives a force user skill with the blade, that scene is a pointless waste of time since training doesn't matter.

When you can't accept that Luke being able to blow up the Death Star without a targeting computer is the exact same character arc as Rey being able to fight with a lightsaber, you've got some kind of blockage going on. When you take that so far as to actually invent off-screen implied scenes for one character and not the other, it just gets all kind of weird.

The force didn't fly his x-wing or point it very close to where he needed to drop the proton torpedo. Luke's skill did that. The force aided his skill better than the computer could and he successfully blew up the Death Star. Lightsabers shouldn't be any different. The force would aid the skill of the combatant, but it should not be all there is to the skill.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Doesn't that sort of make lightsaber duels pointless, though? The strongest one is almost always going to win if strength with the force = skill with the blade. Might as well just concede or run whenever someone stronger than you shows up. I always envisioned it as skill modified by the force, so both mattered.

No, I’m not saying that power with the Force is exactly equal to skill with the lightsaber. I am simply saying that skill with the lightsaber...in the one scene we get of a Jedi instructing a pupil...was more about the Force than about learning how to wield a blade.

So, since that is the case, I’ll take Rey’s scene of quiet practice with the saber as being more meaningful than the offscreen training scenes you’re suggesting Luke must have had.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm not refusing to acknowledge it, since I have acknowledged it in this discussion. I'm saying that it's not training, since she shouldn't know those moves yet. In fact, if the force is what gives a force user skill with the blade, that scene is a pointless waste of time since training doesn't matter.



The force didn't fly his x-wing or point it very close to where he needed to drop the proton torpedo. Luke's skill did that. The force aided his skill better than the computer could and he successfully blew up the Death Star. Lightsabers shouldn't be any different. The force would aid the skill of the combatant, but it should not be all there is to the skill.

Then you're entirely ignoring the lightsaber training scene in TLJ, where Rey first allows she has skill with her staff and then shows her translating that skill almost move for move with the lightsaber. We literally see a scene explicitly explaining her skill with the lightsaber as related to her already demonstrated skill with her staff.

It doesn't get clearer than that.

 

[OB1]

Doesn't that sort of make lightsaber duels pointless, though? The strongest one is almost always going to win if strength with the force = skill with the blade. Might as well just concede or run whenever someone stronger than you shows up. I always envisioned it as skill modified by the force, so both mattered.

This is what we are shown in the films. If two force sensitives are of equal power in the Force, it’s skill with a lightsaber that is the deciding factor. But if one person is far more powerful than the other it’s not a contest. See Sidious vs the Jedi in his office. It’s a classic case of bringing a rifle when your opponent brought a tank.

In the OT, Vader was NEVER attempting to cut down Luke. That’s the only reason Luke survived. He was being tested for his power.

Kylo is weakened by both the shot he took from chewie and the “splitting of his soul” from killing his father, hence Finn and Rey’s ability not to be instantly struck down by him. Both Finn and Rey also had melee combat training to fall back on. It’s also unclear whether Kylo was trying to kill Rey or test her.

He got more than he bargained for once she gave herself over to the Force. Again, there is a huge difference in ability shown when you want to control the Force vs allowing the Force to control you.


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[Maxperson]

This is what we are shown in the films. If two force sensitives are of equal power in the Force, it’s skill with a lightsaber that is the deciding factor. But if one person is far more powerful than the other it’s not a contest. See Sidious vs the Jedi in his office. It’s a classic case of bringing a rifle when your opponent brought a tank.

No. They died(and very stupidly in the movie) because Sidius had plot armor. Nothing about that scene implied he was stronger than they were, only that those 5(?) masters were the "three stooges" of the Jedi. That's the same reason he survived when Mace had his saber a fraction of an inch from his neck. Only a plot victim of a master would be so stupid as to pull back for a swing when all he had to do was move the saber forward an inch.

 

[Maxperson]

Then you're entirely ignoring the lightsaber training scene in TLJ, where Rey first allows she has skill with her staff and then shows her translating that skill almost move for move with the lightsaber. We literally see a scene explicitly explaining her skill with the lightsaber as related to her already demonstrated skill with her staff.

It doesn't get clearer than that.

Riiiiiiight, because staff skill is the same as sword skill. I guess I'm great at flying airplanes all because I'm good at driving a car.

 

[Maxperson]

No, I’m not saying that power with the Force is exactly equal to skill with the lightsaber. I am simply saying that skill with the lightsaber...in the one scene we get of a Jedi instructing a pupil...was more about the Force than about learning how to wield a blade.

So, since that is the case, I’ll take Rey’s scene of quiet practice with the saber as being more meaningful than the offscreen training scenes you’re suggesting Luke must have had.

There was no force use in her "training" scene. At least Luke had something he needed to defend against and needed the force to guide him. She was using pure sword skill, which she had none of.

 

[Ryujin]

Riiiiiiight, because staff skill is the same as sword skill. I guess I'm great at flying airplanes all because I'm good at driving a car.

In the real world, unlike in role playing games, certain concepts in armed combat transfer rather well as shown by various martial treatise. In fact since a lightsaber doesn't have a defined edge anymore than a staff does, even more would translate.

 

[hawkeyefan]

There was no force use in her "training" scene. At least Luke had something he needed to defend against and needed the force to guide him. She was using pure sword skill, which she had none of.

How do you know that she was not using the Force?

I think perhaps this is part of the problem with the discussion....if there’s any doubt, Luke gets a pass (training happened off screen, Yoda must have had his lightsaber with him, etc.) but Rey does not (she’s not using the Force while practicing, her skill with a staff can’t possibly help her, etc.).

Why is that?

 

[billd91]

Riiiiiiight, because staff skill is the same as sword skill. I guess I'm great at flying airplanes all because I'm good at driving a car.

Well, Luke was great at flying sophisticated, cutting edge military hardware all because he had a souped up T-16 hot rod back home. So... yeah. The narratives are very similar yet it’s Luke who gets the pass but not Rey. Too right we know why...