We went from 5 saving throws to...64!

[mmadsen]

Go crack open a GURPS basic set and Compendium 1, then come back here and say again that D&D has too many skills.

Perhaps both have too many skills...

 

[Trevalon Moonleirion]

Emirikol: You keep on saying that saves and skills are redundant without offering any explantion of HOW they are redundant, or what could be done better. I'm not going to bother parroting all of the other fine ideas in this thread, but the question remains:

HOW are they redundant? Asking someone to make a Balance check and rolling a reflex save are two totally different things. Reflex saves represent something instinctual, something natural and REFLEXIVE, whereas balance is a conscious effort type thing.

 

[Ourph]

HOW are they redundant? Asking someone to make a Balance check and rolling a reflex save are two totally different things. Reflex saves represent something instinctual, something natural and REFLEXIVE, whereas balance is a conscious effort type thing.

Not that I agree with the OP, but I think that's a bad example. It seems to me that an argument can be made that the same physical and mental processes that allow you to Balance/Tumble also come into play when you are making a Reflex save. Balance/Tumble skill checks and Reflex saves are "two totally different things" because the rules define them to be, not because there is some inherent quality to those two things that make them distinctly separate. It seems to me that even the rule-based distinction between passive and active that you point out is debatable since you can choose to forego or automatically fail a save, indicating that Reflex saves do represent, on some level, an active choice. Admittedly, Reflex saves also incorporate an element of Initiative, in that the Tumble/Balance/whatever must not only be successful but quick enough to avoid whatever danger the character is avoiding. So a skill check alone can't completely replace the things a saving throw represents in all cases. But the assertion that they are two inherently distinct things requires just as much proof (which hasn't been provided) as the assertion that they are the same.

The best (and IMO the only valid) argument for not replacing saves with skills or vice versa is that sometimes skills make the game more interesting and sometimes saves speed the game along. While you could potentially represent the exact same things covered by a Reflex save with a combined Initiative roll and a Tumble check, it is arguably easier, faster, simpler, more efficient, etc. to just use the saving throw mechanic for those things. Alternatively, you could go the route of games like Castles & Crusades with skills, having a single saving throw mechanic based on 6 individual ability scores represent all skill checks as well, but that removes most of the customizability of the skill system that allows it to represent progress in chosen areas as a character advances, which IMO, is a net loss to the overall fun of the system.

 

[Technik4]

I just skimmed mike mearls blog today and saw this:

A Simple D&D Stunt and Skill System
Ditch all skills that can be used untrained.

Everything that doesn't match a remaining skill is now an attribute check. Cut every class's skill ranks in half. When you buy a skill, you buy the right to make checks using its relevant attribute. Don't keep track of ranks. You get access to a new skill at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.

An attribute check is d20 + the relevant ability score (not the modifier; the entire score).

DCs range from 10 to 30 for most tasks, with 5 point increments. The (DC - the ability score + 1) times 5 is the chance of success. Some checks are opposed, just as per the rules now.

Everything else is up to the DM.

My thinking behind this is that a skill system is only as interesting as the players and DM want to make it. Adding more rules to the D&D skill system, such as for stunts, doesn't make it more interesting. It just bloats the system. These rules allow a DM and players to find their own level of importance for skills.

These rules don't tell you what you can do with them. They just provide a framework for doing stuff.

Pretty random, but seems relevant to the discussion.

 

[Sejs]

Perhaps both have too many skills...

It's possible. But "Quit yer bitchin', nancy" just didn't have the same ring to it, ya know?

 

[Festivus]

That image dates from Emirikol's 1st edition incarnation. Thus, he could not have been casting scorching ray.

Clearly it's Ray of Frost and he is extinguishing the flames on the burning citizens.

 

[Lackhand]

So what you're saying, Mike Mearls, is that my wizard can't climb a rope/wall/slope, or swim in the river, or jump the gap, because I didn't burn my precious skillpoints on climb/swim/jump? As in, I can't even try?

No thanks.

 

[kenmarable]

So what you're saying, Mike Mearls, is that my wizard can't climb a rope/wall/slope, or swim in the river, or jump the gap, because I didn't burn my precious skillpoints on climb/swim/jump? As in, I can't even try?

No thanks.

Actually, I believe from the first two sentences ("Ditch all skills that can be used untrained. Everything that doesn't match a remaining skill is now an attribute check.") that those are all ditched and are now ability checks. In fact, the skill list we would start with after that first sentence is:
- Autohypnosis (for the psi folks)
- Decipher Script
- Disable Device
- Handle Animal
- Knowledges
- Open Lock
- Profession
- Psicraft
- Sleight of Hand
- Spellcraft
- Tumble
- Use Magic Device
- Use Psionic Device

Everything else is rolled into one of these or is an attribute check. I don't think I would use this system, but your criticism does miss the main point. Your wizard would be able to climb, jump, and swim just as well as anyone with the same strength.

 

[Thaniel]

Maybe we could truncate the system even more.
We'd have the Do Something roll, and the Avoid Something roll.
That covers all the bases.

 

[Ranes]

Clearly it's Ray of Frost and he is extinguishing the flames on the burning citizens.

No! You're wrong for the the same reason Paradox42 was. The correct answer is Ray of Enfeeblement.

The burning corpse is simply the remains of a commoner who drank to excess at the Green Griffon and stumbled into a torch on his way out.