Weak Deaths

The problem with Failure=Death is that the player never has to deal with the consequences of failure. After all, if failure=death, then every living character in a campaign has never failed.

This is where metaplots become a good thing. Your party was the last hope in a line of parties that never made it back. Somehow you missed the Macguffin or got TPKed. Whoops, world affecting events already in motion meet their peak. New characters have to deal with the new imaginary reality.

And getting back to my point about Invincible Heroes: I feel that Superman is boring because he cannot be defeated unless the writers write that he can. On the other hand, we also have "why the hell is there so much kyrptonite on Earth?" situations. I'm looking at you Smallville, where apparently you can buy a kyptonite chunk at a dime store.
 

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Scenario: You're playing an 18th level character you've run since first level for over 3 years in real time. He's the leader of the party, and the hope of middle-earth. He's defeated dragons and hordes of undead. His magic weapons are legendary. This character is really part of YOU. You've played with him every week for THREE years.

Your party is on their way to the island fortress of the Demon King for the final epic battle. It's gonna be awesome. The entire campaign has led up to this. You have to swim across a river to reach the castle. You roll a 1 on your swim check. You get another chance, and roll a 2. One more chance, roll another 1. You are swept away and drown. Your character is dead. You miss the final epic battle, because you had a bad stroke of luck, and the greatest hero the world has ever seen drowned in rather unheroic fashion.

You're totally fine with that?
I'm playing a game. If the dice come up, "You failed three skill checks," then that's what happens.

Yes, I'm totally fine with that. That's specifically why I opted to play a game as opposed to writing a story or some other like activity where I get to choose my character's fate.

I also don't play roleplaying games with the expectation that the end result is supposed to be an epic story. I approach gaming with the attitude that what happens in play is the character's story, and while my characters pursue goals and build relationships, I don't presume that they are destined for greatness or some special purpose. My characters succeed or fail because they succeed or fail, not because of some out-of-game presumption of ultimate success or timely, 'appropriate' failure.

And my characters are never, ever part of ME. I'm excited when they succeed, and bummed when they fail; I'll work my tail off making an effective character and playing him as sharply as I can, and when he's swept away by a river, I'll bewail the cruel hand of Fate. But it's still just a character in a game, not ME.
I'm all for letting the dice land where the may, and I will absolutely NOT protect a player from a combat death, but I just don't think a great character dies in a trivial manner.
I don't think the death you outlined above is in any way "trivial."

The adventurer is swept away by a dangerous river crossing, leaving the rest of the party short-handed as they prepare to face the BBEG. That's actually pretty epic on the face of it. Do they press on, or do they fall back? That death creates an interesting dilemma.

And I assume it must've been a dangerous river crossing, and that there was a compelling need to cross it, because if it wasn't dangerous and necessary, we could've found a safer way to cross, like flying a character with a rope across the river and rigging a safety line, and that the referee wouldn't put a "trivial" challenge in front of us if the referee didn't want death to be a possible outcome facing the adventurers.

One of the great failings I see in situations where gamers advocate fudging is creating what are meant to be 'color' situations and forgetting that if the dice are involved, then unexpected outcomes are possible. In my experience most instances of fudging arise from something along the lines of, "Oh crap, I didn't think that would happen!" It reflects poor encounter design.

The basic rule of thumb is, don't roll the dice if you aren't prepared to accept the results, and if you don't want death or another serious consequence to arise from an encounter, then don't create an encounter where death is possible due to bad luck.
 

I agree with a lot of Shaman's post. If, as a GM, I don't want the PCs to die from crossing a river, I should either not place the river there or I should just say 'ok, you make it across.' Likewise, if I want the river to be an obstacle, but not an obstacle which can cause death, I should have other failure results available.

I also agree that not every adventure needs to be a race to save the world. I too often play the game for the purpose of experiencing the character's story. I often like my rpg experience to be a little more like reading a book than watching a movie.
 

I dunno Celebrim, there are a fair number of games which take death pretty much right off the table, yet, aren't simply pass the story stick style games either.

3:16 Carnage Beyond the Stars, for example, allows players to dictate win or lose conditions a limited number of times. At one point you can simply dictate to the DM that you win the encounter. And you do. Granted, once you do that, you can't do it again, but, you do win. If you decide to use your weakness and lose the encounter, you are removed from play, but on your own terms. You are not dead, unless you choose to be.

The player dictates that his character was incapacitated, medivac'd, captured, whatever, but, he's not dead.

Sufficiently Advanced has the notion of Twists where the players can take in game negative effects in order to hit the "I win" button at any time. And they will win every time they do this.

You mention about ignoring the simulation. Well, sim play isn't the only game in town. There are other play styles out there that some people do find fun.

Me, I like to swing from both sides. Sometimes I want the real hard core sim style play and sometimes I want a more character driven game.

As far as the player being a jerk and abusing it - fighting to the death because they know they cannot be killed, for example - well, I don't play with jerks. I play with people who understand the underlying concepts of the game and don't go out of their way to abuse the system.

Doesn't matter what system I play in for that to be true. I don't play with hardcore munchkin/powergamers in sim games and I don't play with jerks in other games.

Bottom line is, don't play with jerks.
 

This is where metaplots become a good thing. Your party was the last hope in a line of parties that never made it back. Somehow you missed the Macguffin or got TPKed. Whoops, world affecting events already in motion meet their peak. New characters have to deal with the new imaginary reality.

And getting back to my point about Invincible Heroes: I feel that Superman is boring because he cannot be defeated unless the writers write that he can. On the other hand, we also have "why the hell is there so much kyrptonite on Earth?" situations. I'm looking at you Smallville, where apparently you can buy a kyptonite chunk at a dime store.

The thing is, Superman can be defeated all the time.

His friends die. His girlfriend marries Lex Luthor. He loses any connection to his real father. He loses the chance to be human. And that's just from my casual watching of Smallville.

Heck, you want a better example, look at Doctor Who. Here's a character who has defeated everyone. He's wiped out entire races who got in his way. But, he loses all the time. He can't save everyone. He tries to save someone who refuses to be saved. He wins the big battle, but loses what's important.

And, after everything is said and done, he's utterly, utterly alone in the universe.

Jack Harkness, from Dr Who and Torchwood, can never die. Literally cannot be killed. Ancient Cthuluesque evils can't kill him. Yet, at the end of Children of Earth, do you think that he wins? I won't spoiler it if you haven't seen it, but, there's a perfect example of an absolutely invulnerable character that loses pretty much everything.

The PC's not dying is only important if no one or nothing is important in the campaign. If the PC's are the only important characters, and the setting is just window dressing, then sure, death of a PC is important. But, if you embed the PC's in the setting, give them meaningful relationships, get them to actually care about something other than their own money grubbing selves, then death of the PC is the least important consequence.
 

As someone who thought the scene in Westworld where Josh Brolin's character gets shot, leaving Richard Benjamin to carry the film was sheer genius...

and

As a person who played a PC who- Gollum-like- failed to completely cast off the dominating effects of an evil artifact that the party was to destroy...and who made a last-ditch effort to claim it, Mordenkainen's baby still his arms when his partymate's hammer fell, completing the mission...

the resultant release of energy killing the baby.



I can say "Yes, I'm totally fine with that."

The difference between what you describe and the drowning described earlier is that your death was the culmination in the downfall of your character set up sessions and sessions before. It was the ending of a memorable flawed character.

The PC who dies drowing on the way to the final battle is the flawed ending of a memorable character.

Dying before the final act isn't necessarily bad story, but it can easily be if it isn't expected.

DS
 

I try to plan ahead. If I'm designing a scenario that includes a 200-foot cliff, and expect the PCs to climb said cliff, and make the DC high enough that there is a risk of falling--I keep in mind that this is a potentially lethal situation. If I don't like the idea of a PC dying this way, I'll adjust the situation.
With you all the way.

That said, sometimes there's a 200-foot cliff and no reason why the PCs need to climb it but they take it into their heads to do so anyway. In that case, if someone falls, I'm pretty lenient about attempts to stop the character from dying;
Lost me. If they start free-climbing the 200ft cliff, without any ranks in climb and with a big armour check penalty, chances are they are going to get it. That said, I play Trailblazer, so they have action points. A few of them at least.
 

My point about Superman is that even Superman is tired of being Superman. Check the Invincible Hero trope if you don't believe me. And if everybody and their grandmother has Kryptonite, Why Don't You Just Shoot Him (when he's weakened, obviously)?

Hussar, it is obvious there is no point in continuing to explain my position to you further. Or anyone else's who is okay with PC death. We explain and re-explain while you ignore and ignore.
 
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If I'm 18th level and going against a demon, I expect him to have an arsenal of kill you dead by looking at you funny in his bag of tricks.
 

The difference between what you describe and the drowning described earlier is that your death was the culmination in the downfall of your character set up sessions and sessions before. It was the ending of a memorable flawed character.

Again, the baby died, not my PC.

In that, it is:
  1. An example of a pyrrhic victory- achieved at an incredibly high cost
  2. An example of "Superman" losing- he's OK, but others around him suffer greatly- the hero's death or survival is not the sole metric of success in any plot.
  3. An example of a single die roll having an incredibly high cost within the context of the campaign, just like the drowning

Dying before the final act isn't necessarily bad story, but it can easily be if it isn't expected.

Again, see my reference to Westworld- the guy who is being presented as the typical Hollywood hero dies before the real action. He's revealed to be a hidden Red Shirt; a white "black guy in a sci-fi movie", only there to show the seriousness of the situation.
 
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