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Weak Plothooks
- Thread starter Allandaros
- Start date
TheAuldGrump
First Post
delericho said:
Yep, bite the hook, but let the DM know that the hook ain't great.
The Auld Grump, so, you are all in the tavern when a stranger walks in...
The Shaman
First Post
Ah, I love the classics...TheAuldGrump said:
I like to start with either action or a mystery - if there's not some sort of skill check or combat roll in the first five minutes, I feel like I'm off my game (pun intended)...
Darkness
Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
If it's a new GM, take the hook and help him get better.
Also, nobody's perfect. Thus, occasionally taking a bad hook from an experienced GM can be good as well.
I wouldn't recommend running after random stuff in my campaigns for meta-gaming reasons, though - I simply don't operate that way, so if you do that because you think it's my plot, you might be disappointed (or possibly even get yourself killed, depending).
On the other hand, absolutely feel free to run after random stuff in my campaigns while you're not looking for The Plot(tm) - many things out there are good for a story, just not a hugely important one.
Also, nobody's perfect. Thus, occasionally taking a bad hook from an experienced GM can be good as well.
I wouldn't recommend running after random stuff in my campaigns for meta-gaming reasons, though - I simply don't operate that way, so if you do that because you think it's my plot, you might be disappointed (or possibly even get yourself killed, depending).
On the other hand, absolutely feel free to run after random stuff in my campaigns while you're not looking for The Plot(tm) - many things out there are good for a story, just not a hugely important one.
Digital M@
Explorer
PapersAndPaychecks said:
IMO, if this translates to ignore the hook for your own ego, worst idea ever. After all, there are other peole at the game that are probably ready to get things rolling.
Grab the hook and run with it. The game is about having fun with the people around you, not creating the perfect fantasy epic. Hooks are such a small part of the game, once the adventure starts the hook is usually in the background.
Hussar
Legend
I think I'll take a middle line here (or fence sitting if you want to call it that).
Since the guy is apparently a newbie DM, it wouldn't kill anyone to take the hook and run with it and then have a bit of a chat after the game to point out what might have been done better. This is probably the route I would take as a player with a new DM.
On the other hand, a good idea might be to take his somewhat lame hook and inject a bit of high octane into it. This requires your newbie DM to be flexible enough to let you run with an idea, so long as you don't steamroll right over him. Possibly calling a time out and having a chat with him before you try might be in order, just to give him a bit of a head start in accomodating you.
For example, if the hook is talking to Duke Unpronounceable about clearing out them old mines, then maybe you could add a bit of spice to things. The Orcish pottery bit mentioned before is an idea of this. Ask a few leading questions and you might be able to establish a better reason for your character to go.
Probably the best answer would be to step outside with the DM for a sec and work out a bit of a better hook.
A similar log jam happened in a game I played in recently. The hook was to go and clear out some kobolds from an area. One of the players very strongly objected to this. It took a bit of working out, but we found out that she was worried about the rest of us slaughtering non-combatants. When we found this out, I realized that my cleric of Cuthbert has not interest in punishing the innocent and I promised that we would spare them. This broke the logjam and we trotted merrily on our way to getting our butt's handed to us on a platter. But at least we got through the logjam.
Try finding out what the DM intends and find some common ground. It's usually easier than you think.
Since the guy is apparently a newbie DM, it wouldn't kill anyone to take the hook and run with it and then have a bit of a chat after the game to point out what might have been done better. This is probably the route I would take as a player with a new DM.
On the other hand, a good idea might be to take his somewhat lame hook and inject a bit of high octane into it. This requires your newbie DM to be flexible enough to let you run with an idea, so long as you don't steamroll right over him. Possibly calling a time out and having a chat with him before you try might be in order, just to give him a bit of a head start in accomodating you.
For example, if the hook is talking to Duke Unpronounceable about clearing out them old mines, then maybe you could add a bit of spice to things. The Orcish pottery bit mentioned before is an idea of this. Ask a few leading questions and you might be able to establish a better reason for your character to go.
Probably the best answer would be to step outside with the DM for a sec and work out a bit of a better hook.
A similar log jam happened in a game I played in recently. The hook was to go and clear out some kobolds from an area. One of the players very strongly objected to this. It took a bit of working out, but we found out that she was worried about the rest of us slaughtering non-combatants. When we found this out, I realized that my cleric of Cuthbert has not interest in punishing the innocent and I promised that we would spare them. This broke the logjam and we trotted merrily on our way to getting our butt's handed to us on a platter.
But at least we got through the logjam.Try finding out what the DM intends and find some common ground. It's usually easier than you think.
Aust Diamondew
First Post
Once a newbie DM (in my group) wanted to run an evil campaign (he'd just got the book of vile darkness) but his plot hook was pretty much some guy telling us to save the world. Naturally since our characters were evil and it looked like the odds were heavily not in our favor we decided to run away and start causing havok on another plane (the starting level was 12th; another bad idea for a newbie DM).
The game ended very quickly.
In hindsight I think we should have gone with his very weak plot hook just as a courtesy and simply told him afterwards that he needs to work on it. After all it could have been fun just to kill things and take their stuff if I just ignored his crappy story line (then again the battles that did happen also sorta sucked).
The thing is a DM needs to tell his players to make their characters along parameters that are going to fit into the game. Making people play evil characters who have no motivation to save the world just cause someone told them to is a bad idea.
The game ended very quickly.
In hindsight I think we should have gone with his very weak plot hook just as a courtesy and simply told him afterwards that he needs to work on it. After all it could have been fun just to kill things and take their stuff if I just ignored his crappy story line (then again the battles that did happen also sorta sucked).
The thing is a DM needs to tell his players to make their characters along parameters that are going to fit into the game. Making people play evil characters who have no motivation to save the world just cause someone told them to is a bad idea.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
I'd like to point out that this is not a problem exclusive to newbie GM's. I've mentioned this before but our group is full of veteran roleplayers of many years. And they're such good roleplayers that they tend to write 3+ pages of backstory for their characters before the first session of the campaign. These characters are so distinct, self motivated and set in their beliefs that it became a giant pain in the ass to formulate a hook to get them all going in the same direction for very long. Played properly these characters should probably have stuck together until they resolve the immediate adventure and then disbanded to pursue their various and differing agendas as set out in the backstory.
So, at the start of my last campaign, I made this announcement:
Anybody who writes some backstory for their PC gets a small XP bonus for the first night. Anybody who writes more than half a page gets a substantial XP PENALTY. Ideally you'll have a couple of lines that define your characters personality in the broadest terms like, "Chondar is a Barbarian from the northlands who loves to hunt. He's generally reserved but quick to anger if desparaging remarks are made about his clan."
By doing this I found that the PC's grew into the story rather than having to start right out the gate with ten different plot hooks to suit their vastly different backstories. It also made them more cohesive as a group because the personal agendas that emerged did so during the course of the game. This made them more inclined to occasionally participate in an adventure on the basis that "the rest of the gang is going".
Back on the main topic of this thread, I think that Snowy's idea about "tell me why you are going on the adventure" is great for new GM's. Not only does it remove the danger of them supplying a weak plot hook but it also gives them concrete examples from the players as to what they think constitutes a GOOD plot hook. The GM can use those examples to create solid hooks for the next adventure.
So, at the start of my last campaign, I made this announcement:
Anybody who writes some backstory for their PC gets a small XP bonus for the first night. Anybody who writes more than half a page gets a substantial XP PENALTY. Ideally you'll have a couple of lines that define your characters personality in the broadest terms like, "Chondar is a Barbarian from the northlands who loves to hunt. He's generally reserved but quick to anger if desparaging remarks are made about his clan."
By doing this I found that the PC's grew into the story rather than having to start right out the gate with ten different plot hooks to suit their vastly different backstories. It also made them more cohesive as a group because the personal agendas that emerged did so during the course of the game. This made them more inclined to occasionally participate in an adventure on the basis that "the rest of the gang is going".
Back on the main topic of this thread, I think that Snowy's idea about "tell me why you are going on the adventure" is great for new GM's. Not only does it remove the danger of them supplying a weak plot hook but it also gives them concrete examples from the players as to what they think constitutes a GOOD plot hook. The GM can use those examples to create solid hooks for the next adventure.
