D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[Thaumaturge]

If the fighter uses both the feast and indomitable..his chance is 87%.

Thanks.

Cleric better get to cooking.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Obryn]

For the wizard, I will assume a 14 in Wisdom (Int and Con are most wizards prime stats, with a little dex for Init. I doubt mainly would focus heavily on Wisdom).

+6 for Prof, +2 for stat...+8 vs that DC 16...a 65% chance to pass (about equal to the Fighter).

For the rogue, again a 14 wisdom. They also have prof in Wisdom saves at this level due to slippery mind, so 65% chance to pass.

And for completeness, the cleric. 20 wisdom, +6 prof, that's a +11 vs DC 16. The cleric passes 80% of the time.

Haha it's beginning to look like "proficiency on Wisdom saves" would be a better ability than the revised Indomitable.

 

[Vicar In A Tutu]

This whole deal with saving throws seems bizarre. Didn't the designers notice this?

 

[Obryn]

This whole deal with saving throws seems bizarre. Didn't the designers notice this?

In classic D&D design fashion, I'm going to bet there was very little attention paid to higher level play.

 

[Stalker0]

Haha it's beginning to look like "proficiency on Wisdom saves" would be a better ability than the revised Indomitable.

Yes and no. Indomitable is weaker but more flexible. It can be used on any saving throw, whereas slippery mind only works on wisdom.

 

[Manbearcat]

In classic D&D design fashion, I'm going to bet there was very little attention paid to higher level play.

Its crazy. I was sure, if nothing else, they would get this one facet right. This part of the system were two of the 5e design aims (at least I thought they were aims...perhaps not) that I found most agreeable. And how hard is it to achieve reasonable saving throw parity and bounded math?

Bob: Suzy, you're in charge of saving throw parity. For levels 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9, add up the spells in those groupings that have saving throws. Divide them by 6. Each saving throw needs that many number of spells allotted to them and find some kind of way to have it make sense. I mean ability scores are silly anyway. Just make it work and get me a sandwich and some coffee when you're done. In an hour.

Bob: Jack, you're in charge of making sure that each class pretty much has 3 good saves and 3 saves that are 2-3 less than those good saves throughout the life of any given character. Bounded accuracy etc. Ok. A bit more difficult but that is because I like Suzy better than you. She makes better coffee than you and isn't a lazy, neckbeardy, lurkey fellow. You have 3 hours. And business casual actually means a collared shirt. Don't give me that look.

Suzy and Jack: Grumble grumble...

 

[Nagol]

So if the fighter convinces his friend that 2 raise deads pale in comparison to a hearty breakfast...the fighter's save improves to 64% base (advantage and indomitable both provide a double roll in this context).

If the fighter uses both the feast and indomitable..his chance is 87%.

Unless the caster forces disadvantage. And Heroes' Feast costs 1,000 gp per casting so I suspect a random day is unlikely to see its use (you pointed it out indirectly; I'm just calling the material cost out explicitly).


Let's take your same situation, but tweak the numbers slightly.

Cuthgar started with the default array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and he's human so that pushed it to 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9

Str 16, Con 15, Dex 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 14.

Over his adventuring career he gained 14 points Str +4, Con +5, Dex + 1, Wis +2, Cha +2

So he now has Str 20, Con 20, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 16.


Wisdom save +2

So Cuthgar has a 35% chance of success against Bosniak, a wizard half his level. If he uses his daily Indomitable, his success rate goes up to 58%. Bosniak better have a Plan B.


Now let's replace Bosniak with the group's nemesis Glanvar. Glanvar is only a couple of levels behind Cuthgar and has max Int. His DC is 8 + 6 + 5 = 19.

So Cuthgar has a 20% chance to save. If he has Indomitable available, that rises to a whopping 36%.



*edit* whoops I was too generous! Wis save is only +1!

His chances are actually 30% / 51% and 15% / 28% respectively.

 

[Nagol]

In classic D&D design fashion, I'm going to bet there was very little attention paid to higher level play.

I'm not sure. It may be they want abilities that force a save to generally work. I suspect they intend this form of effect -- there are a lot of coincidences otherwise.

At high level, a good save with an -1 modifier (lowest possible without rolling) is the same as a poor save with a +5 modifier, for example.

The biggest trouble is making certain effects that force a save don't overwhelm the game with large effects: poisons aren't save or die or save or suck, spells need to have very limited single-save or suck effects, damaging effects have to expect most characters to fail, etc.

 

[Nikosandros]

Hold and dominate are pretty much save or suck in my book and, by using a higher slot, they can even affect multiple targets.

 

[Thaumaturge]

And Heroes' Feast costs 1,000 gp per casting so I suspect a random day is unlikely to see its use (you pointed it out indirectly; I'm just calling the material cost out explicitly).

Thanks. I didn't notice it the times I checked the spell, and I just didn't get Stalker's reference.

So. Yeah, that's not an everyday breakfast. That's a Special Day breakfast.

Thaumaturge.