Sadrik
First Post
Not really there are only 3 saves in 5e.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356511-Saving-Throws-design-choice
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D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws
- Thread starter Savage Wombat
- Start date
Not really there are only 3 saves in 5e.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356511-Saving-Throws-design-choice
Obryn
Hero
Correction: In Basic.
the Jester
Legend
That's a bit of a premature assumption, I think. All we've seen is Basic, with neither different subclasses nor a wide swath of monsters. I'd certainly bet that there will be at least one thing that requires saves based on a different ability by the time the MM & DMG are out, if not sooner.
Which is why I had the qualifier "live up to the promise of using all six stats"
Only three of the six official saves are in evidence, but then the designers added a bunch of not-quite-saves, skill checks, attribute rolls, and pretty much any other idea that struck their fancy. It's quite a potpourri.
The good news is magic in wondrous again because there certainly doesn't seem to have a pattern!
A lot of interesting discussion in this thread:
When it comes to scaling, the first thing to note is that for the Wizard, levels scale his power in 3 different ways:
1) His spells get harder to resist.
2) His spells have stronger effects.
3) His variety of spells increases. This effectively allows him to maximize the utility of each spell cast for the situation he is in. For the purpose of this discussion, it means he is ever more likely to have a spell with a saving throw that attacks the bad save of his opponent.
When you compare that to the defender, the scaling works like this:
1) The Defender's good save stays on par. It scales at about the same rate.
2) The Defender's poor save falls behind. Over 20 levels you likely lose about 8 points (6 for the proficiency, 2 for not scaling the stat up as much as the spellcasters primary stat).
3) The Defender's HP compared to damage....varies a bit:
For example, a 5th level fireball is doing roughly 5.6 damage per level. A d6 character with a decent con, and d8 and d10 characters are going to generate scale faster than that. At the top of the chain with meteor swarm, its 8.2 damage per level...so generally your d10 characters will keep par, d8 and d6 characters will fall behind the curve a bit.
But hey this is all math and stuff...lets look at an example that might put this in perspective. A 20th level fighter....against an 10th level wizard. Cuthgar the brave 20th level fighter, takes a walk out of the inn due to the "call of nature". Bosniak, the evil 10th level wizard, sees Cuthgar and begins his fiendish plan!!
Bosniak casts Dominate Person on Cuthgar. Now the spell actually gives some very easy ways to force disadvantage on the saving throw, but lets just look at the straight up numbers.
Bosniak: 19 int (starts with a 15, +4 for ability increases is a 19. He's an NPC so lets not top him off at a 20). Prof Bonus: +4.
So his DC is going to 8+4+4 = 16.
Cuthgar: 16 wis (I personally think a 16 is about the top end wisdom you would expect for most fighters, unless the fighter is going for the true "wise warrior" motiff. I certainly don't think anything higher is typical, frankly a 14 to 15 is more likely). Prof Bonus: 0
Wisdom Save: +3
So Cuthgar has a 40% chance of success against a wizard half his level...and Cuthgar is no slouch in the wisdom department. However, Cuthgar has the indomitable ability. If he uses it (because no one is going to take kindly to be mind jimmied when they are on the john!) his success rate goes up to 64%.
So...considering there is a 36% chance the Fighter falls completely under the control of someone half his level....would people say that is an issue or not?
When it comes to scaling, the first thing to note is that for the Wizard, levels scale his power in 3 different ways:
1) His spells get harder to resist.
2) His spells have stronger effects.
3) His variety of spells increases. This effectively allows him to maximize the utility of each spell cast for the situation he is in. For the purpose of this discussion, it means he is ever more likely to have a spell with a saving throw that attacks the bad save of his opponent.
When you compare that to the defender, the scaling works like this:
1) The Defender's good save stays on par. It scales at about the same rate.
2) The Defender's poor save falls behind. Over 20 levels you likely lose about 8 points (6 for the proficiency, 2 for not scaling the stat up as much as the spellcasters primary stat).
3) The Defender's HP compared to damage....varies a bit:
For example, a 5th level fireball is doing roughly 5.6 damage per level. A d6 character with a decent con, and d8 and d10 characters are going to generate scale faster than that. At the top of the chain with meteor swarm, its 8.2 damage per level...so generally your d10 characters will keep par, d8 and d6 characters will fall behind the curve a bit.
But hey this is all math and stuff...lets look at an example that might put this in perspective. A 20th level fighter....against an 10th level wizard. Cuthgar the brave 20th level fighter, takes a walk out of the inn due to the "call of nature". Bosniak, the evil 10th level wizard, sees Cuthgar and begins his fiendish plan!!
Bosniak casts Dominate Person on Cuthgar. Now the spell actually gives some very easy ways to force disadvantage on the saving throw, but lets just look at the straight up numbers.
Bosniak: 19 int (starts with a 15, +4 for ability increases is a 19. He's an NPC so lets not top him off at a 20). Prof Bonus: +4.
So his DC is going to 8+4+4 = 16.
Cuthgar: 16 wis (I personally think a 16 is about the top end wisdom you would expect for most fighters, unless the fighter is going for the true "wise warrior" motiff. I certainly don't think anything higher is typical, frankly a 14 to 15 is more likely). Prof Bonus: 0
Wisdom Save: +3
So Cuthgar has a 40% chance of success against a wizard half his level...and Cuthgar is no slouch in the wisdom department. However, Cuthgar has the indomitable ability. If he uses it (because no one is going to take kindly to be mind jimmied when they are on the john!) his success rate goes up to 64%.
So...considering there is a 36% chance the Fighter falls completely under the control of someone half his level....would people say that is an issue or not?
Obryn
Hero
That's spelling it out pretty well, yep!
Let's not forget most PCs don't even have Indomitable. How about a Rogue?
Or... Another wizard.
I would, but I think that's clear by now.
Let's not forget most PCs don't even have Indomitable. How about a Rogue?
Or... Another wizard.
Thaumaturge
Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
Thanks for doing this analysis. 36% doesn't seem too horrible considering the circumstances. How are the fighter's chances improved if he has a cleric friend who casts Hero's Feast every morning for breakfast?
Thaumaturge.
The one exception among the classes we see is the Wizard. A Wizard is unlikely to raise his wisdom since he has fewer stat increases and it is not a prime stat for the class. Rogue -- Dex, Fighter Con, Cleric Wisdom are all likely to scale as quickly as the opposing caster's primary stat.
I'd peg the differential slightly higher . A poor save is more likely to be 0 +/- 1 (i.e. 8-12 score) compared to the opposing caster's initial 16 and it is not likely to increase much while the caster grows to 20. The Fighter gets the largest ability gain over his 19 levels and gets 14 additional stat points but they are likely to spend 8 between Str and Con. The Cleric and Wizard get the least with 10. Assume the primary stat takes 4 to reach 20. That leaves the characters with 6 points between 5 stats. Some may go into their poor saves, but it is unlikely to be all six points or even the majority. The exception is Con which is likely to be considered for growth by many character types especially since hp thresholds also hold certain spells at bay. So the differential is likely to start around -5 (need to roll a 15+ to save) and fall to -9 (need to roll 19+ to save) by level 17.
It's an issue in that it requires a different perspective from adventure writers and DMs.
That's spelling it out pretty well, yep!
I would, but I think that's clear by now.
Let's not forget most PCs don't even have Indomitable. How about a Rogue?
Or... Another wizard.
For the wizard, I will assume a 14 in Wisdom (Int and Con are most wizards prime stats, with a little dex for Init. I doubt mainly would focus heavily on Wisdom).
+6 for Prof, +2 for stat...+8 vs that DC 16...a 65% chance to pass (about equal to the Fighter).
For the rogue, again a 14 wisdom. They also have prof in Wisdom saves at this level due to slippery mind, so 65% chance to pass.
And for completeness, the cleric. 20 wisdom, +6 prof, that's a +11 vs DC 16. The cleric passes 80% of the time.
So if the fighter convinces his friend that 2 raise deads pale in comparison to a hearty breakfast...the fighter's save improves to 64% base (advantage and indomitable both provide a double roll in this context).
If the fighter uses both the feast and indomitable..his chance is 87%.
