D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[Njall]

I'd point out I would like the possibility for that to occur. It is very D&D. But I feel like the saves of high level types should be good enough that the chance of that occurring should be diminished, ala 1e and 2e.

The possibility? Absolutely. It's D&D, after all. Combat is random to a degree. I just don't want it to be the norm.

 

[Njall]

If you don't want to win, don't throw a wizard loaded with spells that are SoS to the target character. The DM "owns" the NPCs/Monsters. Don't make the Wizard Int 20, give him something like 16. Throw a lower level wizard at the party. Choose other spells that aren't so SoS. The DM owns it. Give the wizard is own bonds/ideals/flaws and have him play to that rather than perfect execution of spell choice against character weakness. If you use a published adventure, do the same. The DM owns those encounters too. Modify, tweak, etc.

Yeah, thanks, but I find that terrible advice ( obviously, if it works for you, then more power to you, but it doesn't work for me).
As you said, if I'm the DM and I want my PCs dead they're dead, kaput, a trail of smoke and a pair of charred boots. You get it. I don't need wonky math to do that.

I am ok with SoS. It gives me wiggle room as DM to pull off the occasional "Yeah, this dude is that bad-ass" without resorting to full-on DM fiat. It becomes a puzzle for the players to figure out: "He'll just hold person on me and game over...we need to find another way. How about an illusion such that me and the wizard look like each other? think he'll waste the spell on the wizard"

My players enjoy that kind of thing.

It is a playstyle preference. It's not broken.

Did I ever use the word "broken"?

 

[jrowland]

This is true, so as DM you will hand wave these rules then? Just curious how you will tackle when the Monster at high level targets the PC with the low stat. Or the PC targets the BBEG with the low stat with a save or suck round 1.

I sort of answered with my reply above. In the case of monsters, again, I am the DM. If I want the BBEG to have a low stat and thereby a low save, then I guess I am ok with PC getting off a SoS round 1, right? If not, then as DM I have to build the BBEG appropriately.

(no longer speaking directly at you, now just ranting a bit
All these "this or that" is broken when its PCs vs DM is silly and largely pointless. In a PC vs PC game, I can see that, but that is not what D&D is. And while, yes, DMs build NPCs like a PC, its an investment of an evening, not many multiple hours of gaming sessions. If NPC(monsters) are road bumps to the BBEG, I build them to DIE. If they are the BBEG, I build them to be a tough challenge. If they are "not to be trifled with" I build them to not be trifled with (i.e. they dish out SoS and are largely immune to SoS e.g).

As DMs, we adjust encounters to the PCs at our table. I build different for 12 year old noobs than I do for my 40+ grognards. Every DM, at every table, has to adjust. If they don't, that is when things "break". The game will totally work if people you use RAW saves but adjust NPCs/Monsters to suit the encounter accordingly . It will also work if RAW rubs you the wrong way and you make an adjustment to saves as suggested by others up thread. No matter what you do or don't do re:RAW, you'll be adjusting NPCs/Monsters to suit the encounter. IMHO, I think its easier to just adjust NPCs/Monsters to suit the encounter period, instead of adjusting both saves and NPCs/Monsters.

It's only broken if you let it break.

 

[Sadrik]

No matter what you do or don't do re:RAW, you'll be adjusting NPCs/Monsters to suit the encounter. IMHO, I think its easier to just adjust NPCs/Monsters to suit the encounter period, instead of adjusting both saves and NPCs/Monsters.

It's only broken if you let it break.

Got it so hand wave and DM Fiat to adjust during play and develop specific custom monsters outside of play with save bonuses to match the possible PC spell options so that it will not be broken.

 

[Quartz]

This issue might be something that leads people to multi-class dip into several classes to get the save proficiencies. I don't like that idea much, I don't want to encourage level dipping like 3e did.

An easy fix for 3E is to give everyone a save of level / 2 rounded down plus class bonus, so there is only ever a 2 point gap (4 if you allow the bonus from a Prestige Class to stack).

 

[Obryn]

And for those resting their hopes on it, Indomitable has been nerfed.

Hard.

 

[jrowland]

Got it so hand wave and DM Fiat to adjust during play and develop specific custom monsters outside of play with save bonuses to match the possible PC spell options so that it will not be broken.

Exactly. Or in less derogatory words: Be a DM and build an encounter to match the PCs.

 

[Obryn]

So is this a good thread to mention Otto's Irresistible Dance?

 

[jrowland]

So is this a good thread to mention Otto's Irresistible Dance?

I'd discuss it on the "official" thread and reference this for Save or Suck. Unless you want to keep talking about SoS of course.

 

[evileeyore]

Yeah, thanks, but I find that terrible advice...

Wait... "Adjust the encounter to fit your party" is terrible advice?


That's like the best advice ever.