D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[evileeyore]

The problem is that everyone fails 95% of the time against a wizard (or, really, anyone with a decent selection of save or suck effects ) that knows what his opponent's weakness is...

So you're saying Batman should win in a fight with with Superman?





I'm cool with that.

 

[Njall]

So you're saying Batman should win in a fight with with Superman?





I'm cool with that.

Nope. I'm saying Hercules shouldn't last less than 6 seconds in a fight with Merlin. But YMMV, obviously.

Edit: and, frankly, my point isn't really "who should beat whom", it's that whoever wins initiative wins, if he has a selection of save or die spells and knows ( or guesses ) his opponent's weakness. So, really, it's more "so you're saying that Merlin should win in a fight with just about anyone?".

 

[evileeyore]

Nope. I'm saying Hercules shouldn't last less than 6 seconds in a fight with Merlin. But YMMV, obviously.

And how long should Merlin last against Hercules?




Note, this was a trick question.

 

[jrowland]

Dude, if it's not a fool it's an uncharismatic dude failing a save against charisma. If it's not an uncharismatic dude it's a weak one rolling vs Strength.
If it's neither of these, it might be a clumsy fighter, and so forth.
The problem is that everyone fails 95% of the time against a wizard (or, really, anyone with a decent selection of save or suck effects ) that knows what his opponent's weakness is (and you're pratically bound to have one unless you spend a bunch of resources to make up for it. In which case your second-to-worst stat becomes your new weakness, and your chance of success increases from 1/20 to 1/10, congrats). And quite a bit of SoS are basically "I win" buttons.

Dude, I am the DM. At any moment I can always win. No button needed.

 

[Njall]

Dude, I am the DM. At any moment I can always win. No button needed.

Yeah, but the point is that you might be winning when you don't want to. Assuming a DM can "win".

 

[Sadrik]

Dude, I am the DM. At any moment I can always win. No button needed.

This is true, so as DM you will hand wave these rules then? Just curious how you will tackle when the Monster at high level targets the PC with the low stat. Or the PC targets the BBEG with the low stat with a save or suck round 1.

There are several options, you cheat behind the screen and say the BBEG saved. The players simply always fail against the monster without a '20' and you let the rest of the party defeat the monster. For the players getting hit with a little to no chance save it is alright for the most part. The other players can step in and help eliminate the monster. But the other and more likely scenario is you get a maxed out spellcaster with a maxed out DC and they eliminate monsters with a near impossible save. If you roll outside the screen like I do this causes issues because now you have little hope to making a satisfying encounter. (Please note that this is more an issue at high level and not an issue at low level, which you may only play levels 1-10 and in that case this is not an issue.)

 

[Njall]

And how long should Merlin last against Hercules?




Note, this was a trick question.

It depends on how fast Merlin can run.
Jokes aside, my point is that Hercules vs Merlin shouldn't end in 6 seconds.

 

[jrowland]

Yeah, but the point is that you might be winning when you don't want to. Assuming a DM can "win".

If you don't want to win, don't throw a wizard loaded with spells that are SoS to the target character. The DM "owns" the NPCs/Monsters. Don't make the Wizard Int 20, give him something like 16. Throw a lower level wizard at the party. Choose other spells that aren't so SoS. The DM owns it. Give the wizard is own bonds/ideals/flaws and have him play to that rather than perfect execution of spell choice against character weakness. If you use a published adventure, do the same. The DM owns those encounters too. Modify, tweak, etc.

I am ok with SoS. It gives me wiggle room as DM to pull off the occasional "Yeah, this dude is that bad-ass" without resorting to full-on DM fiat. It becomes a puzzle for the players to figure out: "He'll just hold person on me and game over...we need to find another way. How about an illusion such that me and the wizard look like each other? think he'll waste the spell on the wizard"

My players enjoy that kind of thing.

It is a playstyle preference. It's not broken.

 

[Sadrik]

It depends on how fast Merlin can run.
Jokes aside, my point is that Hercules vs Merlin shouldn't end in 6 seconds.

I'd point out I would like the possibility for that to occur. It is very D&D. But I feel like the saves of high level types should be good enough that the chance of that occurring should be diminished, ala 1e and 2e.

 

[Njall]

This is true, so as DM you will hand wave these rules then? Just curious how you will tackle when the Monster at high level targets the PC with the low stat. Or the PC targets the BBEG with the low stat with a save or suck round 1.

There are several options, you cheat behind the screen and say the BBEG saved. The players simply always fail against the monster without a '20' and you let the rest of the party defeat the monster. For the players getting hit with a little to no chance save it is alright for the most part. The other players can step in and help eliminate the monster. But the other and more likely scenario is you get a maxed out spellcaster with a maxed out DC and they eliminate monsters with a near impossible save. If you roll outside the screen like I do this causes issues because now you have little hope to making a satisfying encounter. (Please note that this is more an issue at high level and not an issue at low level, which you may only play levels 1-10 and in that case this is not an issue.)

Yes, and it's not just that. IIRC, proficiencies were initially added to the playtest process after the designers realized that half a dozen of ghouls could easily slaughter a high level party. Since AC and Saving throws didn't improve with level, they ended up adding a scaling bonus to saves.
Except that, later on, they liked the concept so much that they switched the bonus to "everything the character should be good at" and removed it from what they were not supposed to be so good at.
Aaaaand we're back to square 1, since now all it takes for that same half a dozen of ghouls to slaughter a high level party are a couple of failed saving throws from the guys with the right proficiency (or just a high level party that doesn't include someone proficient with the right saving throw).
Which was kind of a big deal when it happenned during the playtest, so much that the designers essentially "broke" the bounded accuracy model and introduced a scaling bonus to make up for it, but now suddenly seems to be fine.