D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[UngeheuerLich]

If you are worried by weak saving throws consider following option:

DC for spells is 10+ability+proficiency modifier. Or 8+ability bonus+2*proficiency bonus. (Depending how you want good and bad saves to scale. You could even consider 9+ability bonus+1.5*proficiency bonus

All saves get proficiency bonus. Good saves get double proficiency bonus.

Maybe you want to smooth the progression a bit and raise the proficiency bonus of good saves by 1 every odd level instead of 2 eacht time proficiency bonus would usually increase.

My proposal is easy to handle, even for monsters. Just add proficiency bonus to all their saves, which is usually derived from the monster´s challenge rating based on the few monsters we have seen so far.

 

[Obryn]

But I think if it were shorn down to just -1 to +5 most people would feel that was acceptable. If the brilliant 20 INT wizard casts a CHA save on the barbarian dwarf with an 8 CHA. It seems reasonable that the player should have to roll a '16' to save.

Yeah, not all 6 point spreads are equal.

An 8-13 spread in target numbers is substantially different from a 14-19 spread, for example.

 

[jrowland]

Yeah. It's + 11 vs -1, so 12 points for anyone with a dump stat ( like, say, all the pregen characters we've seen until now and whoever uses the standard array, IIRC ), at level 20.
With a -1, you need to roll a 20 to succeed against a maxed DC. That's pratically a no-save spell.

If a fool (wis bonus -1) is saving against a 20th level wizards hold person ... yeah, practically a no-save spell seems about right. That fool may be 20th level, but they are a still a fool.

 

[Njall]

But I think if it were shorn down to just -1 to +5 most people would feel that was acceptable. If the brilliant 20 INT wizard casts a CHA save on the barbarian dwarf with an 8 CHA. It seems reasonable that the player should have to roll a '14' to save.

The problem isn't how large the gap between good and bad saves is: if you needed to roll a 4+ for a good save and 16+ for a bad one it would be totally different, since we're talking a 25% chance of success for your worst case scenario. I wouldn't appreciate the fact that DCs and saves scale differently, but it would still be manageable.

But at high level with proficiency rules in effect he would have to roll a '20' which would be a natural '20' only. That does not make sense. Reinforces pulling proficiency from saves and casters. As a side effect, it makes plugging in a stat boost to shore up a poor save a slightly more viable option.

Edit: Fixed my math I forgot the the DCs are 8+pro+stat

Yeah, I'll probably just remove proficiency from DCs in actual play, and maybe increase the DC to "10+stat" to make up for it at low levels.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I expect the PHB to have a feat for proficiency in saving throws. You'll be able to choose between an overall improvement with an ability score bonus or just getting better at saving, specifically. I don't know how many for a feat would be balanced, though. One feat for two additional saving throws seems about fair, in my opinion.

 

[Njall]

If a fool (wis bonus -1) is saving against a 20th level wizards hold person ... yeah, practically a no-save spell seems about right. That fool may be 20th level, but they are a still a fool.

Dude, if it's not a fool it's an uncharismatic dude failing a save against charisma. If it's not an uncharismatic dude it's a weak one rolling vs Strength.
If it's neither of these, it might be a clumsy fighter, and so forth.
The problem is that everyone fails 95% of the time against a wizard (or, really, anyone with a decent selection of save or suck effects ) that knows what his opponent's weakness is (and you're pratically bound to have one unless you spend a bunch of resources to make up for it. In which case your second-to-worst stat becomes your new weakness, and your chance of success increases from 1/20 to 1/10, congrats). And quite a bit of SoS are basically "I win" buttons.

 

[Sadrik]

Yeah, I'll probably just remove proficiency from DCs in actual play, and maybe increase the DC to "10+stat" to make up for it at low levels.

Yup, this is what I will do too. Let me point out. This is way awesome, by far the best save system in any of the editions thus far. Changing the d20+Stat+Pro vs. 8+Stat+Pro to simply d20+Stat vs. 10+Stat really hits a feel I am looking for in the game.

 

[Sadrik]

I expect the PHB to have a feat for proficiency in saving throws. You'll be able to choose between an overall improvement with an ability score bonus or just getting better at saving, specifically. I don't know how many for a feat would be balanced, though. One feat for two additional saving throws seems about fair, in my opinion.

I think this also can be done with multi-classing too. Fighter picks up a level in wizard, bam, 4 saves covered. Granted I dont like that but I am sure many will see that as a way to shore up defenses in the game rules as written.

 

[am181d]

This seems like a feature to me as opposed to a big. It means that PC spellcasters at high level will be good at exploiting the weaknesses of high level NPCs.

 

[Njall]

This seems like a feature to me as opposed to a big. It means that PC spellcasters at high level will be good at exploiting the weaknesses of high level NPCs.

God, I hope not. "The wizard acts first, the BBEG dies" seems at least as unepic and unfun as "the fighter wins initiative, charges in, the BBEG dies before anyone else could act", especially if it happens on a regular basis.