D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[Li Shenron]

I was intrigued with the idea in early playtest packets (IIRC) that ST and spells DC did not scale by level.

Then apparently a lot of people absolutely wanted that scaling to be in the game. I was a bit disappointed but once this was plugged into the new proficiency system I admit I was sold to it!

The "spread" between the best and worst PC with regard to ST is smaller than in previous editions: in 3e the max difference between 2 PCs at 20th level is 6 (same as now), but at the same time now we have a stat cap, and presumably much less sources of additional bonuses.

If someone really doesn't like this, at least it's easier to HR this stuff in 5e IMO. You can even easily introduce a point-buy system to saving throws as well as skill points if you want.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a side note, I like to imagine Ruin Explorer grinding his teeth while reading this thread, waiting for his self-imposed "no 5e rules discussions" rule to lapse with the release of 5B.

Thaumaturge.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes....

 

[jodyjohnson]

I see this as an example of rules not being broken so much as not matching play-style or preference.

Mike Mearls talked about this a bit a couple years ago, but I couldn't find that particular L&L.

For some the 6 point (or more with stats) disparity is a feature, or something they never experience (they play E6 or quit at 10th).

1e/2e had ever increasing defenses with near immunity once magic items were included.
3e had a +2 difference at start and the potential for +10 or more in the late game.
4e set the difference at +2 and from there stats increased the difference.

Currently the spread is very 3.x in scope. I expect some will prefer a smaller gap (1/2 prof to non-prof saves - 4e), some increasing saves across the board (prof to all - AD&D), some custom charts by class (true AD&D).

Any of which change the success rates of spells and creature abilities - but that is exactly the point.

That's not even including the games where Fort/Will/Reflex saves will be used, or even Fort/Will/Reflex defenses.


When something is 'broken' then that a good indicator that your preferences for mechanics might be needing an optional rule otherwise known as a house rule. And that is equally valid.

 

[Sadrik]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?325779-Saving-Throws-through-the-editions

That is a thread that discussed the save options throughout the editions. I also rail against the 6 point proficiency difference in character saves at high level. I think my first thing I house rule will be everyone has proficiency in every save. Like in the thread I like the feel of high level characters saving at a higher clip than low level characters. This is essentially accounted for by the proficiency bonus. It will also counteract the proficiency bonus of casters. Casters will still have a good chance if they target a non-prime stat.

The other consideration is multi-classed characters will they pick up new stats they are proficient in? Easier to have them proficient in all.

But who knows they may have something they added later on about this. We shall see.

Edit: Another potential house rule could be proficiency means +4* period, in effect removing the scaling.

*Or some other number.

 

[Thaumaturge]

That's not even including the games where Fort/Will/Reflex saves will be used, or even Fort/Will/Reflex defenses.

Um. Wow.

Until you mentioned this, I hadn't even thought of it. But it seems really easy to say:

• There are only 3 saves (Fort/Ref/Wil)
• For each save pick your best of Str or Con (Fort), Dex or Int (Ref), and Wis or Chr (Will)
• Whenever a spell calls for a save, group them as above.

And then you have a 4e-like system. Turn them into defenses by adding (10? 11? I forget), and you have a very 4e set-up. As a bonus, your saves will all be better this way, which provides the feel of 4e, too.

Maybe the rest of you thought this already, but I just realized it. Very neat.

Thaumaturge.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

meh.

Fighter 1 v wizard 1
Fighter has to save vs dump stat and beat DC 15 (int 20 so +5 and +2 proficiency, worse case scenario)

Fighter 20 v Wizard 20
Fighter has to save vs dump stat and beat DC 19 (int 20 so +5 and +6 proficiency, worse case scenario)

the expanding gap across all 20 levels is 4. In the worse case scenario of save vs dump stat. Assuming no other counters by the fighter, his friends, etc.

I'm not worried. Players are bastards, they deserve it

On the other hand if the fighter goes first he will turn the Wizard into mush.

 

[Obryn]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?325779-Saving-Throws-through-the-editions

That is a thread that discussed the save options throughout the editions. I also rail against the 6 point proficiency difference in character saves at high level. I think my first thing I house rule will be everyone has proficiency in every save. Like in the thread I like the feel of high level characters saving at a higher clip than low level characters. This is essentially accounted for by the proficiency bonus. It will also counteract the proficiency bonus of casters. Casters will still have a good chance if they target a non-prime stat.

The other consideration is multi-classed characters will they pick up new stats they are proficient in? Easier to have them proficient in all.

But who knows they may have something they added later on about this. We shall see.

I think a 6 point difference is low-balling.

Your proficient saves are in the stats you're invested in, anyway.

Your non-proficient saves are not, with some exceptions like Archer fighters.

Casters, on the other hand, use one stat for all their DCs.

This leads to an 11- or 12 point potential gap between good and bad saves, not 6.

Even if you spend your feats on shoring up low stats, you're going to lose that arms race. I don't think a +1 to a bad save is worth a feat.

 

[Sadrik]

I think a 6 point difference is low-balling.

Your proficient saves are in the stats you're invested in, anyway.

Your non-proficient saves are not, with some exceptions like Archer fighters.

Casters, on the other hand, use one stat for all their DCs.

This leads to an 11- or 12 point potential gap between good and bad saves, not 6.

Even if you spend your feats on shoring up low stats, you're going to lose that arms race. I don't think a +1 to a bad save is worth a feat.

Agreed, the other way to handle this is to remove proficiency altogether from casters and saves. This is how I initially thought they would do it. So you just go raw stat to raw stat plus any bonuses from stuff. This still gives the advantage to the caster but it is dramatically less problematic. This may be what I do...

 

[Njall]

I think a 6 point difference is low-balling.

Your proficient saves are in the stats you're invested in, anyway.

Your non-proficient saves are not, with some exceptions like Archer fighters.

Casters, on the other hand, use one stat for all their DCs.

This leads to an 11- or 12 point potential gap between good and bad saves, not 6.

Even if you spend your feats on shoring up low stats, you're going to lose that arms race. I don't think a +1 to a bad save is worth a feat.

Yeah. It's + 11 vs -1, so 12 points for anyone with a dump stat ( like, say, all the pregen characters we've seen until now and whoever uses the standard array, IIRC ), at level 20.
With a -1, you need to roll a 20 to succeed against a maxed DC. That's pratically a no-save spell.

 

[Sadrik]

Yeah. It's + 11 vs -1, so 12 points for anyone with a dump stat ( like, say, all the pregen characters we've seen until now and whoever uses the standard array, IIRC ), at level 20.
With a -1, you need to roll a 20 to succeed against a maxed DC. That's pratically a no-save spell.

But I think if it were shorn down to just -1 to +5 most people would feel that was acceptable. If the brilliant 20 INT wizard casts a CHA save on the barbarian dwarf with an 8 CHA. It seems reasonable that the player should have to roll a '14' to save.

But at high level with proficiency rules in effect he would have to roll a '20' which would be a natural '20' only. That does not make sense. Reinforces pulling proficiency from saves and casters. As a side effect, it makes plugging in a stat boost to shore up a poor save a slightly more viable option.

Edit: Fixed my math I forgot the the DCs are 8+pro+stat