D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[Njall]

Wait... "Adjust the encounter to fit your party" is terrible advice?


That's like the best advice ever.

Nope. "Ignore the fact that you feel the math is wonky and just adjust whatever doesn't work". Oberoni fallacy and all that, you know.

 

[evileeyore]

Nope. "Ignore the fact that you feel the math is wonky and just adjust whatever doesn't work". Oberoni fallacy and all that, you know.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[Nikosandros]

So far, the scaling of saves is my least favorite part about 5e. Much like [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION], I would prefer a system in which higher level characters get better at saves and not worse (or just stay equal when they have proficiency). In AD&D it's exaggerated in the other direction, as saves became almost automatic at high level, but in 5e they risk getting almost impossible.

 

[Chaltab]

TBH, if my group decides to try out DDN I figure I'll condense the saves into Fort, Ref, and Will and allow them to take ten. (Obviously not on Death Saves)

 

[pemerton]

And for those resting their hopes on it, Indomitable has been nerfed.

Seems a bit of a pity.

So is this a good thread to mention Otto's Irresistible Dance?

Dominate Person still seems better to me (bonus saves only if damaged, can scale up duration with level), but perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[Obryn]

Seems a bit of a pity.

Dominate Person still seems better to me (bonus saves only if damaged, can scale up duration with level), but perhaps I'm missing something.

Otto's takes effect without a save, so works for at least 1 round automatically.

 

[the Jester]

This is true, so as DM you will hand wave these rules then? Just curious how you will tackle when the Monster at high level targets the PC with the low stat. Or the PC targets the BBEG with the low stat with a save or suck round 1.

There are several options, you cheat behind the screen and say the BBEG saved. The players simply always fail against the monster without a '20' and you let the rest of the party defeat the monster. For the players getting hit with a little to no chance save it is alright for the most part. The other players can step in and help eliminate the monster. But the other and more likely scenario is you get a maxed out spellcaster with a maxed out DC and they eliminate monsters with a near impossible save. If you roll outside the screen like I do this causes issues because now you have little hope to making a satisfying encounter. (Please note that this is more an issue at high level and not an issue at low level, which you may only play levels 1-10 and in that case this is not an issue.)

IMHO there's nothing wrong with the save DCs, save proficiencies or having the spells of a 20th level wizard be hard to avoid if they hit you in your weaker areas.

Speaking for myself, I'll let the dice fall where they may. If I need to eventually adjust the DCs and whatnot I will, but a 20th level magic-user ought to be throwing spells that are hard to resist. I don't think the disparity between good and poor saves will be that high, especially for something that comes up a lot (like Wis or Dex saves). By the time your pc reaches 20th level, he or she will have had ample opportunity to shore up the weak spots. If he or she chose not to, well, you made your choice, now live with it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I don't shy away from killing pcs, either.

 

[Sadrik]

IMHO there's nothing wrong with the save DCs, save proficiencies or having the spells of a 20th level wizard be hard to avoid if they hit you in your weaker areas.

Speaking for myself, I'll let the dice fall where they may. If I need to eventually adjust the DCs and whatnot I will, but a 20th level magic-user ought to be throwing spells that are hard to resist. I don't think the disparity between good and poor saves will be that high, especially for something that comes up a lot (like Wis or Dex saves). By the time your pc reaches 20th level, he or she will have had ample opportunity to shore up the weak spots. If he or she chose not to, well, you made your choice, now live with it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I don't shy away from killing pcs, either.

And then your player says let's see... I am 17th level so that is 8 +6 + my 20 stat equals 19 oh yeah and I have a +3 implement and I have that feat that (will likely exist) gives me +1 so my total DC is 23. You look down at your monster's 16 stat and only have +3 and go something is not right. Multiply this over every encounter and you'll think I need something to fix this.

 

[the Jester]

And then your player says let's see... I am 17th level so that is 8 +6 + my 20 stat equals 19 oh yeah and I have a +3 implement and I have that feat that (will likely exist) gives me +1 so my total DC is 23. You look down at your monster's 16 stat and only have +3 and go something is not right. Multiply this over every encounter and you'll think I need something to fix this.

I don't see any sign that there will be magic implements that add to your save DCs. Also, I suspect that the feat you posit simply won't exist- I think that strict math-boosting feats are out. (We'll see, though; I certainly could be wrong on both of these!)

With that in mind, it's more like "save DC 19", which is perfectly fine.

Personally, I find the notion of a 1st level commoner with an 8 Wisdom having a good chance of avoiding a 20th level wizard's charm spell- or, hell, even a decent chance of avoiding it- far more troubling than the reverse.

 

[Sadrik]

I don't see any sign that there will be magic implements that add to your save DCs. Also, I suspect that the feat you posit simply won't exist- I think that strict math-boosting feats are out. (We'll see, though; I certainly could be wrong on both of these!)

With that in mind, it's more like "save DC 19", which is perfectly fine.

Personally, I find the notion of a 1st level commoner with an 8 Wisdom having a good chance of avoiding a 20th level wizard's charm spell- or, hell, even a decent chance of avoiding it- far more troubling than the reverse.

Scaling only adds in if you have proficiency in that save. So whether a 0 level 8 stat or a level 20 8 stat it does not matter they have the same chance of failure.

I thought magic implements were in the playtest btw. I may be wrong though.