Weakening the magic system

[Drawmack]

Weakened Magic Rules
While the core magic rules of the d20 system are a lot of fun and work very well in a high-magic fantasy setting, using the standard combat rules they do not port well to other combat and hit point systems or to a lower magic setting. These rules are offered as a means to easily reduce the power and frequency of magic for a setting with moderate magic. This system is designed specifically for use with the Grim –n- Gritty Hit Point and Battle System by Kenneth S. Hood but should be generic enough to work with other systems as well.

Definitions:
Day – The time it takes a day to pass on your world.

Casting Checks
To cast a spell the caster must pass a casting check. To cast an arcane spell, the spell caster must pass a concentration check with a DC of 10 + spell level + # of damage/healing dice. To cast a divine spell the spell caster must pass a knowledge religion check with a DC of 10 + spell level + # of damage/healing dice. If a spell has no damage/healing dice then the DC becomes 10 + (spell level * 2). If the casting check is failed then the caster still fills a spell slot.

This check applies to creatures that gain caster levels innately such as dragons. The casting check does not apply to spell-like abilities such as a slaad’s summon slaad ability.

Spell Damage and Healing
Spell damage and healing suffer a possible reduction. When rolling the damage or healing for any spell all of the dice that come up with an odd number are worth 1 point instead of the face value. This means that spells still have the same maximum damage and healing but the average damage or healing of spells is greatly reduced.

Spell Slots
A character gets a number of spell slots equal to ½ their con ability or the number of spells allowed by the core rules; whichever is less. The spell slots are filled when a cast is attempted, not when a spell is prepared. Wizards, Clerics and other classes that must prepare or choose their spells ahead of time still prepare or choose their standard number of spells. The most spells that a caster can attempt to cast are equal to their number of spell slots. You must sleep 1/3 of a day (eight out of twenty-four hours) in order to empty your spell slots again.

Turning Undead
This is not a spell or a spell-like ability but rather a gift to the pious from their god. Therefore this is not affected by these rules.

Resurrection (rebirth)
Resurrection spells are considered a special case and therefore have their own additional rules. All of the above rules still apply to the caster that is casting resurrection; however the character being resurrected must also follow the rules below.

Maximum Rebirths
You can only be resurrected, or reborn, a limited number of times. Resurrection requires the direct intervention of a god and therefore gets a god’s attention. As any clergy member will tell you, asking for the direct attention of a god is not a good thing. In this case the gods mark you with a rebirth number, which can never increase. The rebirth number decreases by one every time the same character is reborn, including the first time.
Rebirth Number: ½ constitution score (excluding temporary bonuses) rounded down

Constitution Reduction
Each time a character is reborn their constitution score is reduced by one. If a character was under the effects of a constitution drain at the time of death then the constitution drain becomes permanent, however constitution bonuses are lost. If the character’s constitution becomes less then their remaining rebirths then their remaining rebirths equal their new constitution score.

Rebirth Check
When an attempt is made to resurrect a character that character must pass a rebirth check (Fort save). The rebirth check is completed before the constitution reduction. If the character fails this check the spell caster still used a spell slot and the character is permanently dead.
Rebirth Check DC: 25 – ½ con + ½ character level; round final result up

Death from Constitution Damage
If a character dies from constitution damage they cannot be resurrected by any means.

Questions, comments, criticisms, good points - all are welocome and requested.

 

[Cheiromancer]

A nice, fresh take on a popular topic.

I like how you use a concentration check instead of a spellcraft check.

I also like how you make it based on the number of dice of damage that are healed/inflicted. It will make spellcasters use fewer flashy spells. And the flashy spells aren't so flashy with the odd number = 1 rule. This effectively reduces each die by one increment (d6 becomes d4, d8 becomes d6, etc.)

And the double cap to number of spells castable is quite elegant. It doesn't affect low level spellcasters, but provides quite a restrictive limit on high level casters.

Improved counterspelling ability might be another interesting feature. If opposing wizards neutralize each other, battles are resolved by the warrior types. Putting wizards in the background is definitely a low-magic theme.

Another idea may be to make spellcasting detectable at long ranges. The thread on Middle Earth in the Conversions forum has some nice rules on this.

 

[Jeph]

I like it! I like it a lot!

However, there are a few HP systems (such as the Grim n Gritty HP System, find it at www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com) have a VERY small amount of HP. In this case, I'd recomend, instead of odd=1 rule, reduce all die types by 2, to a minimum of 1.

And a bit of clarification?

what does "a character gets a number of spell slots equal to 1/2 their Con ability..."

Is this Concentration or Constitution?
If it's Constitution, shouldn't it be the key ability for the caster's spell DCs?
What level are slots gained from Con?

-Jeph

 

[Jeph]

Improved counterspelling ability might be another interesting feature. If opposing wizards neutralize each other, battles are resolved by the warrior types. Putting wizards in the background is definitely a low-magic theme.

Actually, I disagree. Some low-magic settings put wizards in the extreem foreground. Middle Earth, for example.

but an improved counterspell ability would be really cool! maybe a skill or feat? How bout this skill:

Counterspelling (Int, Trained Only)
With this skill, negate a fellow caster's magical powers.
Check: If a spell is cast within (10 x Int score) feat, you may make an initiative check (DC = opponent's HD). If you succeed, you may counterspell as an attack of opportunity.

To counterspell, you must first use up spell slots whose combined level equal the level of the spell to be cast (you might want to make a Spellcraft check to identify the enemy's spell for this purpose).

When you counterspell, make a Counterspell roll. Your target must succeed at a Concentration check DC your roll or lose the spell.


So, how do you like it?

-jeph

 

[Drawmack]

Wow guys great input. Thanks for the input and the praise.

cheif,
since I say con ability and not con skill it would be the constitution ability and not the concentration skill, however I will reword it to say constitution score, thank you for noting the ambiguity.

also spell slots do not have a level. How it works is a spell caster has access to the same number of spells per day as they would according to the core rules. However they cannot cast all of those spells, they can only attempt to cast a number equal to their number of spell slots. Clearing up this misconception makes a tad bit of the discussion mute I am affraid. Also I realize this has a possible hole of characters always wanting to use powerful magic for their slots, but it's harder to cast that. I don't know if this is truly balanced internally but it will come out in the playtesting as these rules are pre-playtest. It was done to keep bookkeeping to a minimum.

funny you should mention grim -n- gritty cause I did too. It's what these rules were designed for use with. Matter of fact it is where I got the odds = 1 rule from. The reason for using this instead of reducing dice is because if someone casts fireball it will very rarely be a very powerful spell but sometimes it'll take out a small army. I didn't want to reduce max damage I just wanted to make unber damage a much less frequent event.

On the topic of counterspelling I had not even considered that but I do like the idea. However I'm thinking something more along the lines of the volley spell from 1e. Maybe a spell that allows the caster to send the spell back at the caster (an arcane version only though as it doesn't make much sence for divine spells). If someone has a copy of the volley spell it would be appreciated if they could post it. The reason for making it a spell would be so that it suffers all the negatives mentioned inatly. Also I could make it a series spell like summon monster where it will only repell a spell of equal or lower level. This means that the higher level you choose the harder it is to cast by the casting check and also you don't know what spell is being cast against you so you'll always want to choose the highest level one available to you. Also it is limited in the number of times a day it can be used.

Thoughts, suggestions.

 

[Drawmack]

As far as spell slots being based on constitution I got the same comment about relating it to the casters DC ability. I thought about that and I'm still considering it. The reason that I am hesitant to change it is because these rules are designed to work with grim -n- gritty. In grim -n- gritty hp are heavily dependent on con and armor is a bigger boon then by core rules. This means that most casters are already at a disadvantage for not wearing armor. On top of that I am making there magic much less reliable and much less powerful. I really didn't think it was fair to make them choose between good hp and a good number of spells on top of that. I am aware that this could unbalance things with a cleric who gets armor and magic turning them into a battle mage with a single class, however clerics don't get that many uber kill spells so I don't think it'll be all that bad, but yet again something that will come out in the playtest.

 

[jgbrowning]

spellcasters

do spellcasters get any benefits to help balance out the negatives you've described? haven't read the grim and gritty so my questions might be answered there

more skill points? little better fighting skills?

joe b.

 

[Drawmack]

Not really, what I have done with these rules is attempt to weaken the casters to the same degree that fighter archetypes have been weakened under the grim n gritty. So while not getting a boon they are getting balanced. I would honestly suggest that you go have a read of grim n gritty as these rules will make much more sense after that.

 

[jgbrowning]

ok

will do.

joe b.

 

[Drawmack]

Take II

Okay here we go. This is the second version of my weakened magic system. Special Items of note are.

Definitions Added
Casting Checks now roll against the ability that controls the number of spells a caster has.
Spell slots are not related to the ability of the save dc on a caster's spells
Using Magic Items Added
Examples Added
Optional Rules added to Casting Checks, Spell Damage and Healing, Spell Slots and Resurection

In a seperate post I will answer all of the questions brought up earlier in the thread as they relate to the new system.

Weakened Magic Rules
While the core magic rules of the d20 system are a lot of fun and work very well in a high-magic fantasy setting, using the standard combat rules they do not port well to other combat and hit point systems or to a lower magic setting. These rules are offered as a means to easily reduce the power and frequency of magic for a setting with moderate magic. This system is designed specifically for use with the Grim –n- Gritty Hit Point and Battle System by Kenneth S. Hood but should be generic enough to work with other systems as well.

Definitions:
Day – The time it takes a day to pass on your world
Casting Check - The roll that a player must make in order for their character to cast a spell
Spell Slots - The number of spells, regardless of level, that a character may attempt the cast in a day
Rebirth Check - The roll that a player must make in order for their character to be reborn
Magic Items – Wands and Scrolls

Casting Checks
To cast a spell, the spell caster must pass a casting check with a DC of 10 + spell level + # of damage/healing dice. If a spell has no damage/healing dice then the DC becomes 10 + (spell level * 2). If the casting check is failed the caster still fills a spell slot.

This check applies to creatures that gain caster levels innately such as dragons. The casting check does not apply to spell-like abilities such as a slaad’s summon slaad ability.

The modifier that the caster adds to their roll is called their casting save. Casting saves for the core classes are detailed in Table 1. All casting save modifiers have a minimum of 0. All rounding is down to a minimum of 0. To calculate the casting save for a different class the formula is Ability modifier of spell save DC + ((20/Highest level spell) [rounded up] * Caster Level)

Table 1: Casting Saves by Class
Bard – Charisma Modifier + 1/3 Bard Level
Cleric – Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 Cleric Level
Druid – Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 Druid Level
Paladin – Wisdom Modifier + 1/4 Paladin Level
Sorcerer – Charisma Modifier + 1/2 Sorcerer Level
Wizard – Intelligence Modifier + 1/2 Wizard Level

Optional
1) Near Miss - If the casting check is only missed by 1 the spell still goes off but it's effects are halved. If the effects cannot be halved then it is pointed at a random PC or NPC.

Each of the options detailed below should be used exclusively as they contradict one another when attempting to use them together.
2) On a casting check a natural 1 can always fail and a natural 20 can always pass.
3) A natural 20 = 30 and a Natural 1 = -10
4) A natural 1 is a critical failure doing 1 point of temporary ability damage to the character’s casting save ability. A natural 20 is a critical cast and the spell does not suffer the damage/healing reduction detailed below.
5) On a natural 1 or a natural 20 the caster rolls a second casting check. If the second casting check is passed then a natural 20 becomes critical or a natural 1 does not do the ability damage. If the second casting check is failed then a natural 1 is a critical failure and a natural 20 is not a critical cast.

Spell Damage and Healing
Spell damage and healing suffer a possible reduction. When rolling the damage or healing for any spell all of the dice that come up with an odd number are worth 1 point instead of the face value. This means that spells still have the same maximum damage and healing but the average damage or healing of spells is greatly reduced.

Optional
Natural ones count as zeros but all successful spells do a minimum of 1 point of damage or healing if they have damage or healing dice.

Spell Slots
A character gets a number of spell slots equal to ½ their ability score from Table 2 or the number of spells allowed by the core rules; whichever is less. The spell slots are filled when a cast is attempted, not when a spell is prepared. Wizards, Clerics and other classes that must prepare or choose their spells ahead of time still prepare or choose their standard number of spells. The most spells that a caster can attempt to cast are equal to their number of spell slots. Spell slots do not have a level attached to them. You must sleep 1/3 of a day (eight out of twenty-four hours) in order to empty your spell slots again.

Table 2: Spell Slot Ability by Class
Bard – Charisma
Cleric – Wisdom
Druid - Wisdom
Paladin – Wisdom
Sorcerer – Charisma
Wizard – Intelligence
General – The ability of the caster’s spell save

Optional
Spell slots may, at the GMs discretion, be regained on a prorated basis. If the DM allows this then the character will receive a percentage of their spell slots equal to the percentage of a full nights sleep that they got. For example if a wizard gets 8 spell slots and the day is 24 hours long, then they will receive 1 spell slot for each hour they sleep.

Turning Undead
This is not a spell or a spell-like ability but rather a gift to the pious from their god. Therefore this is not affected by these rules.

Resurrection (rebirth)
Resurrection spells are considered a special case and therefore have their own additional rules. All of the above rules still apply to the caster that is casting resurrection; however the character being resurrected must also follow the rules below.

Maximum Rebirths
You can only be resurrected, or reborn, a limited number of times. Resurrection requires the direct intervention of a god and therefore gets a god’s attention. As any clergy member will tell you, asking for the direct attention of a god is not a good thing. In this case the gods mark you with a rebirth number, which can never increase. The rebirth number decreases by one every time the same character is reborn, including the first time.
Rebirth Number: ½ constitution score (excluding temporary bonuses) rounded down

Constitution Reduction
Each time a character is reborn their constitution score is reduced by one. If a character was under the effects of a constitution drain at the time of death then the constitution drain becomes permanent, however constitution bonuses are lost. If the character’s constitution becomes less then their remaining rebirths then their remaining rebirths equal their new constitution score.

Optional
The GM can have the player roll 1d4 and subtract that amount from the constitution.

Rebirth Check
When an attempt is made to resurrect a character that character must pass a rebirth check (Fort save). The rebirth check is completed before the constitution reduction. If the character fails this check the spell caster still used a spell slot and the character is permanently dead.
Rebirth Check DC: 25 – ½ con + ½ character level; round final result up

Optional
A natural 1 always fails and a natural 20 always passes.
Death from Constitution Damage
If a character dies from constitution damage they cannot be resurrected by any means.

Using Magic Items
In order to use a magic item the character must either be a character that can cast and knows the spell that the item casts or they must be a bard or rogue with the use magic device skill. Every magic item has a use DC of 10 + spell level + # of damage/healing dice, if the spell has no damage/healing dice then the use DC becomes 10 + (spell level*2). The use magic device skill can only be used to cast a spell from a scroll or wand a number of times equal to the character’s charisma score per day. A caster that is using a magic device rolls a standard casting check, however they only use half a spell slot when using a magic device.

Examples
Our Party
Karin - 8th Level Druid Con 14, Wis 16 (+3)
Damien - 4th Level Wizard Con 12, Int 12 (+1)
Seria - 18th Level Bard Con 18, Cha 18 (+4)
Jeremiah - 10th Level Fighter Con 16, Fort Save +10
Serilac - 4th Level Rogue Con 10, Fort Save +1

Spell Preparation/Selection
Since this is not affected by these rules all of the spell casters abide by the core rules. Number/Level breaks down spells.
Karin selects 6/0, 4/1, 4/2, 3/3, 3/4, 2/5
Damien prepares 4/0, 3/1, 2/2
Seria says screw you guys I'm playing some tunes. But she's allowed to cast 6/0, 5/1, 5/2, 5/3, 4/4, 4/5, 3/6 spells per day.

Spell Slots
Karin has 8(16/2) Spell slots. So even though he has prepared 22 spells he can only attempt to cast 8 of them.
Damien has 6 (12/2) Spell slots. So even though he has prepared 9 spells he can only attempt to cast 6 of them.
Seria has 9 (18/2) Spell slots. So even though the cores rules give her 32 spells per day she can only attempt to cast 9 of them.

Casting Checks
Karin attempts to cast Ice Storm. The Casting Check for this spell is 10 + 5(spell level) + 5(damage dice) for a total of 20. Karin Rolls a 14 + 7(Casting Save) = 21 which is enough to cast the spell. The spell successfully goes off. Karin now has 7 spell slots left for the day.
Damien attempts to cast Protection from Arrows on himself. The Casting Check for this spell is 10 + 4(spell level *2) = 14. Damien rolls a 4. 10 + 3 = 13, which is not high enough to cast the spell. The spell fizzles and Damien can only attempt to cast 5 more spells today.
Seria attempts to cast Nightmare. The Casting Check for this 10 + 5(spell level) + 1(damage dice) = 16. She rolls a 7 + 10 (Casting Save) = 17. The spell is successful and Seria can only cast 8 more spells today.

Damage/Healing Rolls
Karin rolls the damage for Ice Storm (5d6) and gets 3,6,2,5,1. This roll becomes 1,6,2,1,1 = 11. Karin's Ice Storm deals 11 points of damage to the target.
Seria rolls the damage for Nightmare (1d10) and gets a 9. This becomes a 1. Seria's Nightmare does 1 point of damage.

Resurrection
Jeremiah has fallen from a cliff and died. The party lugs his body back to town, while cursing themselves for not hiring a Cleric. Back in town they take the body to a temple to be resurrected. The priest is successful in resurrecting Jeremiah, now Jeremiah has to see if his spirit can find his body (His check is 25 - 8 + 5 = 23, he rolls a 16 adds the Fort modifier of +10 = 26 so he is successful). As you walk the foggy path towards the light that is shinning brightly in the distances you hear a strange voice summoning you back. You turn around and walk back from whence you came. As you feel yourself stepping back into the confines of a mortal body you hear a booming voice say, "Death is supposed to be permanent, you are a lucky warrior." Opening your eyes you find yourself in a temple with your friends standing around you. Jeremiah now has a con of 15 and can only be resurrected 7 more times.

Serilac has set of a trap while attempting to disarm it and died. The party carries her back to town, grateful that they hired a halfling rogue. Back in town they take the body to a temple to be resurrected. The priest is successful in resurrecting Serilac. Now Serilac will see if she can make it back to her body (Her check is 25 - 5 + 4 = 24. She rolls a 14 + 1 = 15, which is not high enough to come back). As you walk down the foggy passage towards the light that is mystically pulling you, you pause for a moment as a voice calls you from behind. You attempt to find that voice but in the confusion you walk into the light. The body does not move.


Questions following immediatly