Weapon and Implement Expertise

[Aulirophile]

@Aulirophile: implement|implement users are fine. The potential problems arise in non-implement|implement cases where the non-implement user's weaponry can't be used as an implement, such as the Archer Ranger|Invoker I mentioned earlier.

t~

That would be why Archer Ranger|Invoker is a poor hybrid choice. Most hybrids aren't really viable as-is anyway, I don't see the fact that a couple are SOL as an issue. That was my point. But you aren't any worse off then anyone else who has to maintain two attack items and grab versatile expertise. Get a Battle Harness, or Quick Draw, or, or, or, etc., and it won't even effect your action economy very much. If you don't like those options... don't play a relatively poor hybrid choice.

 

[tiornys]

That would be why Archer Ranger|Invoker is a poor hybrid choice. Most hybrids aren't really viable as-is anyway, I don't see the fact that a couple are SOL as an issue. That was my point. But you aren't any worse off then anyone else who has to maintain two attack items and grab versatile expertise. Get a Battle Harness, or Quick Draw, or, or, or, etc., and it won't even effect your action economy very much. If you don't like those options... don't play a relatively poor hybrid choice.

Actually, I think Archer Ranger|Invoker is a fine hybrid choice (which is why I picked it for my example); it works thematically, it works tactically, and by and large it works mechanically. Literally the only major problem with the build is that you have to maintain two attack items, and that's hardly a new thing for Rangers (although it's generally the melee Ranger who has to deal with it).

t~

 

[DracoSuave]

Any bow/crossbow wielder mixed with any non-holy symbol class has nothing, and in many cases can't even downgrade to a thrown weapon of some kind to compensate.

The only class that is restricted to ranged weapons is the Seeker.

Yes, thrown weapon is an option.

Artificers- Ranged weapon powers
Bards- Same
Paladins/Clerics/Avengers- go thrown
Druid and Shaman- Totemic Spears


The only hybrid combinations that have a problem are:

Seeker/Psion
Seeker/Invoker
Seeker/Wizard.

Frankly, that doesn't bother me much if only three combinations out of 600 cannot be done.

And yes, you can do a Ranger/Invoker. Staff Fighting. Done.

Altho an Archer Ranger/Invoker also wants Quick Draw.

 

[tiornys]

And yes, you can do a Ranger/Invoker. Staff Fighting. Done.

Altho an Archer Ranger/Invoker also wants Quick Draw.

An ARCHER Ranger|Invoker gets exactly zero benefit from staff fighting, since that character never wants to be making weapon attacks with a staff (and yes, the character does want some way to quickly switch between a bow and an implement). Nice try, but you've completely missed the point if that was a serious attempt at a response.

I think at this point we're about finished with hashing through all the old arguments. It might be time to let the thread rest.

t~

 

[DracoSuave]

An ARCHER Ranger|Invoker gets exactly zero benefit from staff fighting

Hybrid's not intended to make every single possible sub build work with every possible sub build.

Ranger/Invoker works, and that's good enough for cricket.

Guess what, a Rageblood Barbarian/Sword and Board Fighter doesn't work either, but Barbarian/Fighter does.

Archer Ranger is not a class, it's a BUILD. Ranger is a class. Ranger works with Invoker.

The only CLASS that has this trouble is Seeker.

 

[tiornys]

Apparently, you believe in reducing the number of viable options in the game. At least, that's the outcome of your stances on the Expertise feats, on weapon as implement enchantments, and on hybrids in general. I believe that decreasing the number of viable options is bad for the game, and that increasing the number of viable options leads to superior game play and more fun for more people. Therefore, I disagree with you on all three counts.

t~

 

[DracoSuave]

Apparently, you believe in reducing the number of viable options in the game. At least, that's the outcome of your stances on the Expertise feats, on weapon as implement enchantments, and on hybrids in general. I believe that decreasing the number of viable options is bad for the game, and that increasing the number of viable options leads to superior game play and more fun for more people. Therefore, I disagree with you on all three counts.

t~

Opening up design space is not 'decreasing options.' It's -increasing- options. More feats like Draconic Spellcaster means you can -do more interesting things.-

On weapon as implement enchantments: You already have lots of choice. You can buy a weapon and an implement, or you can buy an implement/combined. I don't disagree that Versatile Expertise opens stuff up a lot, that's its entire point. But it's not to band-aid what is not a proble, it's to open stuff up!

On Hybrids: Get over yourself. Seriously. Not everything is or can be viable in hybrids, and that's just the way it is. I mean, yeah, one build of ranger doesn't work with implement users, but really... that's too much granularity to be expected from that system. Only three class/class combinations don't work. If you want more granularity than that, you're expecting too much out of the hybrid system.