Weapon Equality

[Kemrain]

To start, I just want to apologise, because this thread is probably in the wrong forum. That is because I can see it fitting into General, Rules, or House, and it will eventually (hopefully) become a houserule, but beforethat can happen it requires some General knowledge and some Rules specific information. Mods, please feel free to move this thread wherever you want, as many times as you want, as often as you want.

That aside, I'm here to discuss Weapon Equality. Not all weapons are created equally! This is by design, however, and is an intrinsic part of the Simple/Martial/Exotic weapon breakdowns. However, not all weapons within each category are created equally, and there are no guidelines for creating weapons that don't appear in standard DnD.

A Longsword deals 1d8 points of damage, with a 19-20 threat range and a x2 crit multiplier. A Battleaxe deals 1d8, only threatens on a 20, and does x3 damage on a crit. These stats are consitered equal, even though they are mathematically different. A Rapier deals 1d6, threatens on a 18-20, crits for x2 and is Finessable, and it is consitered to be the equal of the Longsword and the Battleaxe. However, the Scimitar is fairly identical to a Rapier, only dealing a different damage type, and it isn't finessable (which some folks argue is a bad thing). Is the Scimitar and the Rapier equal? How would this equality even be determined?

What this all boils down to is my desire to create a system of weapon creation where each type of weapon is balanced (as well as possible) against others of the same category (Simple, Martial, and Exotic). Start with a one-handed weapon that deals 1d4 points of slashing damage, threatens on a 20, and crits for x2. Add 2 damage die bumps, so it does 1d8, and increase it's threat range by one; you've made a longsword. If you increase it's crit multiplier instead, it becomes a battle axe. Each of these has 3 'bumps' from the base weapon, so we could say Marial weapons get 3 'bumps'. However, that requires that increasing the damage 1 step is equal to increasing the threat range by one step is equal to increasing the crit multiplier by one step, and I don't know that that's the case. I don't know how to do the math to figure out which is 'better' (and thus more 'expensive') than the others, and I can't figure out how to 'price' weapon boosts.

Not knowing the math, and not being sure that it can be done fairly doesn't keep me from wanting to try, as I think it could be beneficial to break the numbers down to simpler elements from which new weapons could be fairly assembled. I'd like the help of ENWorld to figure out of this is possible, and if so, figure out the best way to accomplish the goal.

So far, in building weapons I know you can add these things:

Increased Damage Die
Increased Threat Range
Increased Critical Multiplier
Bonus to Disarm (+2 - +4)
Trip Weapon (with or without +2 bonus)
Throwable
Finessable
Light Weapon
Two-Handed Weapon

I just can't figure out how much they would 'cost' when compared agaisnt one another.

I also know that you could add things like:

+2 to Resist being Disarmed
+2 to Sunder attempts
+X weapon Hardness or HP

These things are even harded to figure out, without any sort of a foundation. Can anyone help me out?

- Kemrain the Mathematically Challenged.

 

[maddman75]

You could always go rules-light, and drop all the distinctions.

Start with medium martial weapons. These do 1d8 damage and crit on 19-20. All of them. Longsword, battle-ax, scimitar, whatever. Small makes the damage 1d6, and large makes it 2d6. Exotic Weapons deal 1d8, 1d10, or 2d8 for small, medium, and large. All with the same crit factor as well. Simple weapons do 1d4, 1d6, and 1d8 with a crit of 20.

What you've done is essentially made the exact weapon used a bit of flavor text. The size and difficulty to use are the only factors in determining the weapon damage. You might include a couple of exceptions, such as the bastard sword or rapier that have different properties- bastard sword can be used two handed as a martial weapon, rapier acts as a light weapon, etc. But the vast majority work the same.

The weapon you use becomes a bit of flavor for your character. I kind of like that idea myself. It would work well with a 'rules-light' d20 varient.

 

[DanMcS]

What this all boils down to is my desire to create a system of weapon creation where each type of weapon is balanced (as well as possible) against others of the same category (Simple, Martial, and Exotic). Start with a one-handed weapon that deals 1d4 points of slashing damage, threatens on a 20, and crits for x2. Add 2 damage die bumps, so it does 1d8, and increase it's threat range by one; you've made a longsword. If you increase it's crit multiplier instead, it becomes a battle axe. Each of these has 3 'bumps' from the base weapon, so we could say Marial weapons get 3 'bumps'. However, that requires that increasing the damage 1 step is equal to increasing the threat range by one step is equal to increasing the crit multiplier by one step, and I don't know that that's the case. I don't know how to do the math to figure out which is 'better' (and thus more 'expensive') than the others, and I can't figure out how to 'price' weapon boosts.

Not knowing the math, and not being sure that it can be done fairly doesn't keep me from wanting to try, as I think it could be beneficial to break the numbers down to simpler elements from which new weapons could be fairly assembled. I'd like the help of ENWorld to figure out of this is possible, and if so, figure out the best way to accomplish the goal.

We actually had discussion like this in House Rules a while back. We ended up with a series of feats that lets you define how you use a weapon. Here is the thread.

Grim Tales, by Badaxe, has a system of weapon construction exactly like what you're describing, too.

 

[Crothian]

One problem when doing this is weapons become all the same. If a battle ax and long sword and maul all end up being the same mechanically then there becomes little reason to have all of these weapons in the game.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

You see, I disagree with that strategy, Maddman.. While it might work well in a Rules-lite D20 game (which people seem all too enthralled with of late), I don't think it has to work in a generic D20 game..

There is value in having different weapons in one size category- But just allow them to be built according to a system.

Sort of like the Class Construction Guide, but for Weapons.

Let's look at a Long Sword as the base. 19-20x2,1d8dmg. Fairly standard.. The arch-typical D&D weapon.

If we reduce it's threat-range to 20, we've "weakened" the weapon a bit. But we can "fix" that weakening, by increasing it's damage to a d10.

Now we have a 20x2,1d10. That's pretty darn similiar to the Bastard sword, and it's just about equivilent.

Now, I think to be technical, in D&D the bastard sword has 19-20... So, let's get that back somehow.. What else can we give up?
Ah, right. We can make the weapon more difficult to use. Make it an Exotic weapon.

Exotic 1d10, 19x2. We've just moved step by step to get that from the longsword, and be fair about it.


Let's go back to our long sword. Martial, one-handed 1d8, 19x2.

Now, let's say that I want a version of the long sword that's somewhat more versitatle for my character..
I want to make it a Light weapon, so I can use it with Weapon Finesse.. That leaves me with having to do something to make up for it..
Why don't I drop the damage die to a D6.

Ok, so then I get Martial 1d6, 19x2. Not too far from a short sword..

But what if I wanted to make it Throwable, and thus, get me a little more versitility..
I'd have to get that from somewhere... I can get that by dropping the damage die again.. But now, I have a martial 1d4, 19x2 weapon, that's throwable. For all this, it's nice.. I'm enjoying this new weapon type I made... But.. It's got a problem. I want my buddy Radagast the wizard to use it.. Better make it a simple weapon, instead.
Well, if I do that, I'll have to give something else up.. What can I do? I can make it small.

Bang. I've just invented the dagger.


A system to do that would be cool.. But I'm worried that they don't all come out. There was a thread here a few months ago comparing the rapier to the long sword, but those seem hard to show are similiar, as I was doing here..

But it would be useful to re-construct the matrix that WoTC used, or a close relative, to find a way to create new weapons that are in teh same paradigm.. That are balanced against the ones in the book. Hell, to show the ones in the book are balanced against each other!

Just my thoughts,
Colin "Long sword, Add to the damage dice twice, subtract from threat range, and require two hands" Davis

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

And next, of course, you get mired in questions like how rare a particular weapon is (and therefore how likely you are to find a magical version of it in a random treasure haul), how expensive it is (though that only seems to matter in very low-level games), and how annoying or dorky its concept is (seriously, who can I blame the dire flail on?).

At which point a huge mess ensues, I think, and it gets harder and harder to come up with a set of "weapon design rules" that can be passed off as somewhat objective...or even just not completely arbitrary.


That's probably why most people don't seem to care all that much about making all of the weapons essentially equal; at most, they just focus on whatever especially poorly-thought-out addition to the weapons list offends them the most, and nerf it or enhance it until they're satisfied.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. Good luck!

--
you'll need it
ryan

 

[Elric]

To take a really simple example, a change in the weapon die (d8, d10, 2d6 or anything else) cannot be easily balanced with a change in the crit multiplier (18-20,19-20,x3,x4).

Compare a weapon (that always hits and always confirms criticals, for total simplicity) that cannot inflict critical hits at all but does 2d6 base damage and one that has 20/x4 criticals but does 2d4 damage. The character has a +X bonus to damage on each hit (multiplies on a critical) from other sources. Then, the first weapon averages 7+X damage, while the second averages 1.15*(5+X) damage. If X=5, then the first weapon averages 12 damage and the second averages 11.5 damage. However, if X=15, the first averages 22 damage and the second averages 23 damage.

So even if all you care about is average damage in this extra-simplified scenario, you need more information to determine which weapon is better.

 

[reanjr]

While some weapons are sub-par (they also tend to be cheap), the following system works pretty darned well.

Base Weapon
Simple, Light
1d4 Dmg
Critical x2
+1 additional bonus

Bonuses
1 Break a rule (see below)
1 Increase Crit Range
1 Increase Crit Multiplier
1 Add trip-droppable and +2 disarm
1 Add +4 disarm
1 Increase Damage die once
1 Reach
1 Monk may flurry
2 Reach and close weapon
2 Double weapon

Rules
Double weapons can not exceed 1d6 damage
Can not increase both crit range and crit multiplier
Weapons with 18-20 crit range can not exceed 1d8 damage

Drawbacks - grant you additional bonuses
1 One-handed
3 Two-handed
1 Martial
2 Exotic

Miscellaneous
Being finessible does not cost anything, but is more of a role-playing issue
You can freely change between d12 and 2d6, or d8 and 2d4, etc.

A little bit of thought here and there can fit just about any weapon in core D&D. As said before, some weapons are sub-par, but I do not believe any are more powerful than this allows, and most commonly used weapons end up using up all their bonuses, as would be expected.

Much to my dismay, I discovered the Spiked Chain is indeed balanced. Who'd have thought?

 

[FireLance]

Much to my dismay, I discovered the Spiked Chain is indeed balanced. Who'd have thought?

Can I quote you on that? I've lost count of how many times I've had to argue that on these boards.

 

[maddman75]

You see, I disagree with that strategy, Maddman.. While it might work well in a Rules-lite D20 game (which people seem all too enthralled with of late), I don't think it has to work in a generic D20 game..

Yes, but the goal is the same. The goal seems to be to have all weapons be of an equal value. I see this as a good goal, that way your character can use whatever weapon you see him using, whether a longsword, scimitar, warhammer, or what have you and not be penalized because a certain weapon is subpar. AD&D is a prime example of this, where the longsword was the best medium weapon, and halberd was the best polearm.

Of course some put more value on the tactical aspects of D&D, and thus isn't appropriate for all campaigns.