D&D (2024) Weapon mastery

[DEFCON 1]

They are going to bog down combat especially the one where the DM has to roll to resist knockdown every hit and giving yourself nearly permanent advantage is a must have so there goes your level 4 pick.

I don't expect it to be that concerning. DMs already roll saving throws all the time when casters use cantrips, so on the off-chance there is a player at the table with a weapon that has Topple, that's just one more saving throw. And it's not even every attack in the round, because once you use Topple you won't be asking the DM to roll any more saving throws again since the target is already prone.

And as far as Vex for the "permanent advantage"? People already say that the lightly-armored, ranged DEX characters are way too powerful and that everyone always uses them because it's just "the best"... so who cares if they shoot their bows with Advantage now too? Making 'The Best' even 'Bester' doesn't really gain you a whole lot.

 

[mellored]

I am so confused. Yesterday people said, that upgrading a die by using the flex property was a non-improvement. Now everyone had to use a rapier to go from d6 damage to d8...

I am so confused.

Also.
Flex is still a big improvement.

Weak is a lot better than completely useless.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The two situations aren't the same. As @mellored just said... having Flex means not having a different mastery. Taking Rapier was just the best option available. You weren't giving anything up to use Rapier.

That was a tongue in cheek comment.

But I need to answer nontheless.
You gave up the option of using a second short sword or had to take two weapon fighting feat. +2 dex was the strictly better option for most dex based characters.

The same argument could be made for using dagger over short sword. A dagger can be thrown at the cost of just an average of 1 point of damage.

So what I really wanted to say: it is really strange that sometimes people optimize the hell out of everything for 1 point of damage more, disregarding everything they give up, sometimes it is vice versa.

 

[mellored]

And as far as Vex for the "permanent advantage"? People already say that the lightly-armored, ranged DEX characters are way too powerful and that everyone always uses them because it's just "the best"... so who cares if they shoot their bows with Advantage now too? Making 'The Best' even 'Bester' doesn't really gain you a whole lot.

Elven accuracy just got a buff.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The same argument could be made for using dagger over short sword. A dagger can be thrown at the cost of just an average of 1 point of damage.

Heh heh... funnily I have never once, as far as I can remember in all my years of playing, EVER seen a melee character who dual-wields actually ever throw their off-hand weapon. Simply because if you were close enough to be in range to hit someone with it, the melee character would instead just double-move to engage the creature next round than to throw the dagger and then only get to move halfway there. No one bothered.

Obviously all tables are different... but in my personal experience, melee characters just rush into melee as quickly as possible and only use ranged weapons when getting into melee isn't possible. And at that point they pull out their better and longer-ranged weapons (like javelins and bows and such). So at least at my tables... no one ever used a dagger in the off-hand if they had the proficiencies and features that let them use 1d6 or 1d8 weapons in their off-hand instead.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

... no one ever used a dagger in the off-hand if they had the proficiencies and features that let them use 1d6 or 1d8 weapons in their off-hand instead.

One problem was that drawing a dagger was not free (only once per turn). And fast hands allowed to draw one as a bonu action. So the best you could afford was 3 daggers in 2 rounds... Maybe a bit more if you started with 2 in hand.
So yes, throwing them was costly. But as a rogue, I still sometimes threw a dagger. And d4 instead of d6 was no big deal considering that most of your damage came from sneak attack anyway.

Javelins were only viable as str characters. Best use with shields.
A versatility that bow + rapier had not. Overlooked by many.

 

[mellored]

Heh heh... funnily I have never once, as far as I can remember in all my years of playing, EVER seen a melee character who dual-wields actually ever throw their off-hand weapon. Simply because if you were close enough to be in range to hit someone with it, the melee character would instead just double-move to engage the creature next round than to throw the dagger and then only get to move halfway there. No one bothered.

I've never seen anyone throw because you wouldn't get it back. Especially if it's magical.

Though the new blade lock gets returning. I could see them picking up weapons mastery to throw tridents.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I have to admit, I do not like Flex as a property. Versatile weapons can already use Duellist weapon mastery and a shield when used in one hand. I want to see a reason to use one in two hands, or switch around, not just to reinforce what is already the best style.

Maybe Flex could allow the use of different weapon masteries or something similar, cementing them as the versatile option for martial characters.

 

[Tutara]

I think Vex would be better as Feint.

Rather than grant advantage on your next attack on a hit, it should grant it on a miss. It removes the spiralling advantage and represents a rapier wielder turning a miss into an opening.

 

[mellored]

I have to admit, I do not like Flex as a property. Versatile weapons can already use Duellist weapon mastery and a shield when used in one hand. I want to see a reason to use one in two hands, or switch around, not just to reinforce what is already the best style.

Maybe Flex could allow the use of different weapon masteries or something similar, cementing them as the versatile option for martial characters.

That would require changing versatile.

Oh.
What if versatile had 2 different masteries?

Long sword in 1 hand is d8 with sap.
Long sword in 2 hands is d10 with vex.

I do still think that there should be a simple damage boost option. But it should be higher that a single die increase.

Reliable: roll the weapon damage die twice and take the highest.

... +1.31 damage on a d8. Might still be a little weak.