Weapon plus

[Whisper72]

Hmmm... as to the question '+5 or +2, these 3 extra steps barely matter to a higher level fighter', is incorrect AFAIK.

No matter how you look at it, from the basis of the d20 attack roll, any +1 is a 5% increase, as far as BAB raises go (or Thac0 increases for old skool), any +1 is essentially the same as an extra level of fighter for that attack...

So to loose +3 is essentially significant, no matter how you look at it...

As far as my campaigns, the way I look at it, weapons are not technically magical items, but 'enchanted', the +x is the strength of the enchantment and has to do with the magical energies bestowed upon the material, as such higher plusses usually are accompanied by extra powers.

In my game, very few +1 or +2 weapons would have special abilities, the more powerful the weapon, the more likely it is to have additonal powers as well. It is also a sign of it's indestructability / resistance to attacks and dispel attempts....

This means that in higher level games, most weapons PC's will have will be +5 or +6.

As to the various 'cost' and 'wealth' guidelines for PC's and magical items etc, I do not use them in any case. I judge the weapons based on effectiveness and keep them in mind in designing new adventures and parcelling out loot. (I also do not use the whole ECL stuff, as in most of my games the real strength / difficulty of the encounter is more based on the environment, the amount of cooperation between monsters, the 'intelligence' of the monsters etc. and many encounters are with mixed groups of several 'boss' types accompanied by minions and mooks...)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I hand out more special abilities than plusses. The specials add power, but they also add flavor. There's no flavor difference between a +2 longsword and a +3 longsword, but there's a difference between a +3 longsword, a +2 keen longsword, and a +2 flaming longsword.

And there is something irresistibly cool about a +2 holy thundering Navy Colt .45.

 

[MerricB]

Hmm...that seems to say that you can get the feat for free if you raise the wreck. But if you don't want to find the wreck, can you use your regular feat to "cheat" the weapon, wrest its power from it in a battle of wills, or the like?

No. The pre-req for the feat requires you to complete the ritual.

The feats are merely a book-keeping convention.

Cheers!

 

[Kid Socrates]

And there is something irresistibly cool about a +2 holy thundering Navy Colt .45.

Yoink! I know just the place for this!

Weapons of Legacy seems very, very neat. Is there anywhere where I could look at a sample couple pages, or previews? Our FLGS isn't very well outfitted (and there's half a foot of snow outside).

 

[MerricB]

Hmmm... as to the question '+5 or +2, these 3 extra steps barely matter to a higher level fighter', is incorrect AFAIK.

No matter how you look at it, from the basis of the d20 attack roll, any +1 is a 5% increase, as far as BAB raises go (or Thac0 increases for old skool), any +1 is essentially the same as an extra level of fighter for that attack...

So to loose +3 is essentially significant, no matter how you look at it...

If I have one attack with a +13 attack bonus and attack something with an AC of 10, what is the difference between that and attacking AC 10 with an attack bonus of +10?

Nothing.

So losing a +3 is not significant in that case.

For high-level combats, with superior ACs, it's the Iterative attacks that suffer. In some combats, does the fighter actually get the iterative attacks, or does the opponent move about too much?

And does the extra 130,000 gp the fighter with the legacy item get to spend influence things as well?

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Weapons of Legacy seems very, very neat. Is there anywhere where I could look at a sample couple pages, or previews? Our FLGS isn't very well outfitted (and there's half a foot of snow outside).

Yep. The Wizards site has previews of three weapons plus other stuff.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050701a

Cheers!

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Personally, I think the WoL IDEA is pretty good.

I think people's dislike is really just knee-jerk. It's like Free Stuff. Once somebody has gotten something for free, even if they'd have paid for it before hand, they're totally unwilling to pay for it.

Once somebody has gotten a +5 Will Save, taking a -1 to Will Saves ... hell, chop off their character's arm, brand him with irons, take all of his magical gear, but you can't seriously give him a -1 to Will Saves!!!

Functionally, the penalties end up being alot like dipping into a PrC, but without alot of the hidden costs. If you dipped into a PrC with 0.75 BAB, you'd have LESS BAB than you would if you'd taken full fighter. Now, if you take a -1 to attacks, functionally they're quite similar ... but yet you still keep on track for iterative attacks, qualities that depend on BAB (Imp. Critical or some other PrC).

Some of them eat Spell Slots. You lose a 3rd level spell slot. "HOLY SHNIKIES, NOOOOOO!!" ... again, similar to dipping into a PrC with partial progression, but MUCH less punative. You still have full Caster Level for overcoming SR, for damage attacks ... AND, 9 times out of 10, the weapon gives you a SLA of the same level a level or two later. So really, you're just being forced to memorize a certain spell per day AND you get to cast it as an SLA (which has some benefits attached).

Most of the weapons are like PrCs ... they give some stuff that a very particular character would love, but are sub-standard for another type ... one guy might love giving up 1 2nd level slot for CLW as a SLA 3/Day. Another guy might break down and cry.

--fje

 

[Victim]

If I have one attack with a +13 attack bonus and attack something with an AC of 10, what is the difference between that and attacking AC 10 with an attack bonus of +10?

Nothing.

So losing a +3 is not significant in that case.

It can be significant if you have Power Attack

For high-level combats, with superior ACs, it's the Iterative attacks that suffer. In some combats, does the fighter actually get the iterative attacks, or does the opponent move about too much?

And does the extra 130,000 gp the fighter with the legacy item get to spend influence things as well?

Cheers!

It's not just iterative attacks that suffer; the AC of many "boss monsters" is high enough to challenge even a fighter's best attacks. For example, the biggest dragons have around 40 AC base, plus buffing ability - they can being running around with mid 50s AC for real fights. And many monsters will want to take full attacks too because they get lots of natural attacks and Rend, so I can't say that full attacks are rare.

Of course, the main reason for getting +2 weapon with lots of abilities versus a weapon with lots of enhancement bonuses isn't that the +3 attack bonus is trivial. It's because you GMW the weapon with abilities, making it a +4 or +5 weapon with lots of abilities. There's little need for enhancement bonuses on the weapon since the buff overwrites them.

 

[jmucchiello]

LOL!

But is that true? At 20th level, how noticiable is a -3 penalty to hit? Are you using a +5 sword anyway, or a +2 with cool abilities?

Cheers!

At 20th level I have the money to have a +5 weapon with +5 worth of cool abilities. In our 22nd level party, the main fighter has a +4 thundering, shocking burst, axiomatic great axe and a +5 adamantite holy, ghost touch, disrupting great hammer. He hasn't used a +2 weapon in 8 levels. He also power attacks often.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Functionally, the penalties end up being alot like dipping into a PrC, but without alot of the hidden costs. If you dipped into a PrC with 0.75 BAB, you'd have LESS BAB than you would if you'd taken full fighter. Now, if you take a -1 to attacks, functionally they're quite similar ... but yet you still keep on track for iterative attacks, qualities that depend on BAB (Imp. Critical or some other PrC).

Yes, but if I'm going for a PrC with 3/4 BAB, then it's giving me something that I feel worth the reduction in BAB. Good saves, good skills, special abilities, etc. I don't think the costs are hidden, either.

On the other hand, I do not now and never will believe that a legacy weapon could be worth the penalties involved. None of the sample ones gave anything remotely worth the costs.

Some of them eat Spell Slots. You lose a 3rd level spell slot. "HOLY SHNIKIES, NOOOOOO!!" ... again, similar to dipping into a PrC with partial progression, but MUCH less punative.

I'm not quite as upset at surrendering spell slots. Archmage requires it for its abilities, so it's in the game already. Of course, losing one spell slot doesn't affect everything you do, particularly if it's a lower-level spell slot.

But losing skill points and HP, and accepting penalties to skill use, attacks, and saves, will have much more of an effect. And I'm sorry, but a so-so weapon with some near-useless SLAs isn't anything I could accept in exchange.

Brad