D&D 4E Weapon Sizes must die in 4E

[Goblyn]

Largely, I agree: small races would generally be mauled in melee combat by anything sized medium or larger. However, the comparison isn't really apt.

True, it is somewhat of a hyperbolic statement; I didn't mean to come across as talking in absolutes. I was responding to what I percieved as a given argument(...making small races useless in combat). I mean, really. A lower damage die is on average 1 less damage per hit. Apparently this makes the sky fall.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dannyalcatraz
Under 3.0 rules, the two blades- essentially a dagger for a human and one-handed weapon for a pixie- would have the same stats since they are blades of the same size.

Uh, no theyre not. A human Dagger is a two handed sword for a Pixie(If you consider the pixies tiny, as you are). <snip>

You're right- I have my specifics off...but the overall point remains the same.

Despite both of the weapons being "6" Blades," they are vastly different in actual physical dimensions. My dagger in the hands of a tiny creature wouldn't actually be a 2 handed sword: by its volume & mass, it would be more like a caber with edges. He couldn't grab it with a normal 2 handed grip- he'd need to lift it with his entire body.

Likewise, the tiny creature's actual 2 handed sword would be unwieldable as a dagger. Either you'd be wielding it between a thumb and 2 fingers like a swizzle-stick, or much of its blade would be covered by the grasping hand, its razor sharpness cutting into said hand. Eventually, the blood from the ever-widening wound would slicken the thing so much it would be dropped or otherwise lost. In that sense, the process would be much like trying to stab someone with a kitchen knife- because they lack the proper cross-hilt, such attempts often result in the hand sliding off of the grip and onto the blade.

So, again I vote for the continued use of the 3.5 version of weapon sizing rules over 3.0.

However, I'm not averse to the 4Ed designers finding another method...

 

[Vegepygmy]

In case anyone's counting votes, put me down for the 3.5 weapon size rules. The 3.0 rules were awful.

 

[JDJblatherings]

The trouble was that the small races were useless in melee combat before 3.5e... the rules change actually made them better. The exception was in finding magic items of the right size (which, I agree, is an absolute pain).

A Halfling Fighter couldn't use a 2-H sword in 3e, nor a longbow.

Worse, a halfling rogue couldn't use a rapier.

Cheers!

gee the 3'10' guy can't use a two handed sword ....i wonder why? Could it be becasue he is too small ?


I utterly and absolutely reject the notion a small melee fighter was useless in 3.0, they worked fine for years in my game. there is more to life then doign 1-10 points of damage instead of 1-8 pts of damage. The small guy +1 to hit and +1 AC evens things out nicely.

(both fighters are assumed to have a STR 15 to get a +2 to hit and qualify for some feats later in life)
Halfling fighter w/longsword in two hands is averaging 7.5 pts a hit (4.5+3 for weapon in two hands).
Human fighter with bastard sword is averageing 7.5 pts per hit (5.5+2).

factor in +1 to hit for small size and the halfling is doing 10% more damage over the course of a combat.

I see no inherent weakness there in the 3.0 small sized fighter.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The key thing you're missing: The people who don't like it understand it just fine, they just think it's a stupid added bit of bookkeeping that adds nothing -- at all -- to the game.

I think it would help to refresh my memory on the 3.0 rules, because I just can't imagine anything simpler than the 3.5 weapon rules. Unfortunately, I no longer have my 3.0 core books and I don't feel like reading thru all 3 pages of this thread to find an explicit reference to "the simpler way". Can anyone help me?

 

[Storm Raven]

I'll grant you that one. Definitely. The "large longsword" is a greatsword.

So, the insoluble problem you claimed is actually dealt with in the PHB. I'm not finding your argument persuasive.

What proficiency is the ogre using to wield it? Has to be a greatsword proficiency, despite him using it in only one hand. (See how halfling proficiencies work with the rogue or monk).

Yes, and? This is a problem why?

How about a small trident? Oops, no such thing. Not on the weapon lists.

Just because it is not on the weapon lists does not mean it does not exist. 3.0 had rules for that sort of thing if you wanted to use them. They are even in the 3.0 SRD.

It gets even worse... a Colossal giant (I think the Titan can fall into that list) can't find an item that is the equivalent of a Greatsword because there's no item that is "Colossal+"

Arguing that there is something wrong with an easy to use system that covers 99.9% of cases likely to come up in actual play based upon a couple of corner cases just exposes the weakness of your position. To "fix" this seldom occuring problem, the 3.5 system bloats and needlessly complicates the system for the majority of cases - making things more difficult for characters of the actual PC races for minimal gains at the margins. I fail to see how this is an improvement.

The halfling can't use a rapier, and so has only one Weapon Finessable weapon, the dagger, unless something is invented that is similar.

Something was invented that was similar - the smallsword, which actually fills in a gap for medium size characters too.

The 3e rules are an absolute mess when it comes to weapon sizes.

I think you probably meant to say "3.5e rules" there, since that would make your statement true.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I think it would help to refresh my memory on the 3.0 rules, because I just can't imagine anything simpler than the 3.5 weapon rules. Unfortunately, I no longer have my 3.0 core books and I don't feel like reading thru all 3 pages of this thread to find an explicit reference to "the simpler way". Can anyone help me?

small guys consider medium weapons to be two handed.
large guys can use L size weapons in one hand.

and there is a section in the DMG for different sized weapons if anyone really cared.

 

[JDJblatherings]

It gets even worse... a Colossal giant (I think the Titan can fall into that list) can't find an item that is the equivalent of a Greatsword because there's no item that is "Colossal+"

It'd do 8d6 damage.
Breathe a little, use your mind, everything doesn't have to be spelled out in a table (well actually the 8d6 damage was in a table too).

A weapon size doesn't mean the weapon is actually that size. L sized swords aren't 9' tall and 400 pounds.

 

[Chocobot]

They were invented when Savage Species came along and completely and utterly broke the 3e weapon size rules.

There are large-size PCs out there. I've seen a few centaurs, and I think it likely there's an ogre or half-ogre as well. And, by the 3E PHB, there is no such thing as a centaur-sized Greatsword.

Heck, a centaur rogue can't even use a *longsword*! They're stuck with the shortsword.

This is the halfling rogue's list of available weapons:
Crossbow (hand or light), dagger, dart, light mace, sap, shortbow, shortsword.

This is the human rogue's list of available weapons:
Crossbow (hand or light), dagger, dart, light mace, sap, shortbow, shortsword; plus club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morning star, quarterstaff and rapier.

This is the centaur rogue's list of available weapons:
Crossbow (light), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow, shortsword.

Cheers!

Yeah that's another stupid weapon size rule, but in this case it isn't any better in 3.5 either. The only way a centaur could wield larger weapons than a human would be if he strapped it to his horse back. Despite being larger, he still has human sized hands and arms which are the key components to wielding weapons.

 

[Storm Raven]

They were invented when Savage Species came along and completely and utterly broke the 3e weapon size rules.

I'd say that is a problem with Savage Species, not the weapon size rules.

There are large-size PCs out there. I've seen a few centaurs, and I think it likely there's an ogre or half-ogre as well. And, by the 3E PHB, there is no such thing as a centaur-sized Greatsword.

This is the human rogue's list of available weapons:
Crossbow (hand or light), dagger, dart, light mace, sap, shortbow, shortsword; plus club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morning star, quarterstaff and rapier.

This is the centaur rogue's list of available weapons:
Crossbow (light), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow, shortsword.

Okay, explain why the 3.0 weapon size rules prevent the centaur from using the hand crossbow. And the problem of them not being proficient with the club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff and rapier is so trivial to fix that bringing it up as a huge problem is pretty silly.