Weapon Speed

[Griffith Dragonlake]

I've been in hundreds of dagegr versus polearm combats and the only ones a knife/dagger fighter really has a chance at are in hugely differigngskill levels and beign able to grab the other guys pole arm. The "speed" of a dagger is a pretty much a gamer myth.

QFT

I too have kicked a lot of dagger fighter butt with my polearm!

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Yes, but that historical switch in weaponry had nothing to do with a weapon's speed or reach, and everything to do with a weapon's ability to penetrate armor (which, BTW, D&D 3.x does nothing to address).

Agreed 100% Given that the OP wants his players to think through their weapon choice more carefully, where should he draw the line? Weapon speed? Armor as DR? Armor penetration? Weapon reach? These questions have been around as long as D&D with no satisfactory answers for those of us who want their D&D combats to be more towards the simulation end of the spectrum.

Personally, the more time I spent in the martial arts, fencing, and the SCA the more frustrating I become with the D&D combat system. And I got very upset when the 3.0 PHB described a falchion as a two-handed scimitar — something which all previous versions of D&D got right but somehow Cook/Tweet/Williamson f****d up. And the scythe … if the real-life scythe (or war-scythe) was as good as the D&D scythe then why in the world wasn't it used extensively for warfare?

I heartily applaud the OP's attempts to introduce a smidgeon of realism into D&D combat. I just have to ask out loud, where is the right stopping point? Hopefully whereever he chooses to make it, will be closer rather than farther away from the simulationist end of the spectrum.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

So, my first question would be "Are there already feats that increase the power of the heavier weapons? If so, could there be an improved version of the feat?" Next, I'll be thinking about ways to implement new feats. It's gonna require some more reading on my part. I need to read some good stories that show heavy weapon fighters going against light weapon fighters and that tell what they do against the quicker opponents.

3.5 Power Attack grants a 2 × damage bonus instead of the 1 ½ bonus of 3.0. You could expand the PA rules to grant 1 ½ bonus to one-handed mass arms (clubs, maces, hammers, & axes) and to two-handed long swords and two-handed bastard swords. And apply the same rules for Strength. This would incent strong characters to use two handed weapon or 1-handed clubs, maces, hammers, and axes. Historically, it was only the strongest Saxon warriors who wielded the great axe.

Conversely you could grant the weapon finesse feat automatically for all light weapons. In addition, penalize the Str bonus for light weapons to be ½.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Yes, but that historical switch in weaponry had nothing to do with a weapon's speed or reach, and everything to do with a weapon's ability to penetrate armor (which, BTW, D&D 3.x does nothing to address).

I agree. AD&D had a system for that, but we never used it in our group. Certain weapons were better against certain armors. I can't say that I really understood those rules.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Here is what I think weapon speed should affect...

- Iterative attacks per round, when taking a full-round action to make multiple attacks.

- Attacks of Opportunity (it should be easier to react to a sudden drop of your opponent's threat with your dagger than it is, with your greataxe).

- Close combat, i.e. melee while grappling.

All good points. I hadn't thought about it's application to attacks of opportunity. Is there anything in the game that lets a character make multiple attacks of opportunity on a single opponent from only one single provocation? If not, it should be possible to design a feat that would allow a light weapon user to get an iterative attack when making an attack of opportunity. Guaging the prerequisites is the challenging part.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I've been in hundreds of dagegr versus polearm combats and the only ones a knife/dagger fighter really has a chance at are in hugely differigngskill levels and beign able to grab the other guys pole arm. The "speed" of a dagger is a pretty much a gamer myth.

Well, your experience in the matter outweighs mine. I'm a black belt and have trained folks to compete in various international events, but I haven't done much with regard to weapons.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I heartily applaud the OP's attempts to introduce a smidgeon of realism into D&D combat. I just have to ask out loud, where is the right stopping point? Hopefully whereever he chooses to make it, will be closer rather than farther away from the simulationist end of the spectrum.

Thank you.

We've already instituted armor as variable damage reduction. Each armor has a damage reduction die and it's rolled whenever damage is taken and the damage is reduced by the amount of the roll. There's a couple of feats that can modify that roll, a little, to reflect the idea a fighter can specialize in fighting in armor and take better advantage of it than the average warrior might.

We've also instituted a base defense bonus similar to the one in UA, but with some tweaks. It wasn't done through feats, though. It was class-based and I regret that decision. If my group will let me, I want to make it feat-based, instead.

I haven't touched on weapon reach or armor penetration. Not sure how to go about it. And I'd want to limit it to feats so that I don't have to apply it to everything, because that might have odd results that I don't anticipate.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

3.5 Power Attack grants a 2 × damage bonus instead of the 1 ½ bonus of 3.0. You could expand the PA rules to grant 1 ½ bonus to one-handed mass arms (clubs, maces, hammers, & axes) and to two-handed long swords and two-handed bastard swords.

I could see some sort of improved power attack feat that would increase the bonus damage from heavy weapons. I'll definitely think about it.

And apply the same rules for Strength.

Not sure I want to do that. I might consider a feat that allows an exception to the standard rule, though, to increase bonuse damage from strength.

This would incent strong characters to use two handed weapon or 1-handed clubs, maces, hammers, and axes.

Agreed.

Historically, it was only the strongest Saxon warriors who wielded the great axe.

Agreed.

Conversely you could grant the weapon finesse feat automatically for all light weapons. In addition, penalize the Str bonus for light weapons to be ½.

I don't want to grant weapon finesse for free. Nor, do I want to change the strength bonuses to damage for light weapons. I agree with the logic, but I still want to be able to run encounters as written. I don't want to go through and recalculate a whole lot of damage bonuses in published adventures.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Oops! Wrong thread. Sorry... [DELETE]

 

[AnonymousOne]

Thank you, AnonymousOne, for showing me the error of my ways in trying to add two bonus attacks with only one feat. I really appreciate it.

Sarcasm ... ouch... :\