Weapon Speeds and Initiative

Weapon Speed is not accurate. I am a fairly accomplished martial artist, and I can say with certainty, that a Greatsword or bastard sword is not any slower than a longsword for example. To see this in action look at the fight between Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Zhi(sp?) in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Michelle Yeoh uses a variety of weapons from falcions, to a greatsword, to a spear, to swordbreakers, all with remarkable speed. I don't believe she is the strongest person in the world either, and I think strength has very little to do with speed. But hey, its just my opinion.

--Humminbird
 

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Why not use a mechanic similar to the "Swimming" penalty... -1 to initiative for every 5 (or 10) lbs of weapon. This can be counteracted by the character's Str bonus (Str bonus * 1.5 for two-handed). The str modifier can only negate the weight penalty, though, not give a bonus.

So, a 12 Str character wielding a 10 lb. bastard sword single handed, would have a -1 penalty (-2+1)to initiative.

A 14 Str character with a 20 lb. greatsword would also have a -1 penalty to initiative (-4+3)... The Str 12 char with the greatsword would have -3 (-4+1, since you round fractions down)... A Str 16 char with a greatsword would have +0 (-4+4)... A Str 18 char would also have +0 (-4+6, but you should not get a bonus). Anyone with Str 11 or less would have the full -4 penalty.

And remember, initiative would still be modified by Dex. So a Strong, clumsy character with a heavy weapon could still have a penalty, and a weak, dextrous character with a heavy wepon could still have a bonus.

How's that?
 

Jack, that is in and of itself, one of the best quick fixes I have ever seen. It adapts something that already is in the rules and makes it work as an optional system for people that want weapon speed. Congrats on the idea.
 

Jack, I echo wolfpunk's praise. You said in one post what took me several to begin to say. That is exactly the "feel" I was going for. Many kudos and thanks.
 

Initiative isn't a really good thing to reflect weapon speed - it's not all that critical after first round (when flat-footedness happens), and it doesn't make all that much sense, anyway. I mean, you don't actually react slower when hefting a great ax than when carrying a dagger - you might be slower in getting your first swing off, but not in reacting in other ways (ie, not being flat footed).

I considered doing Weapon Speed by having it affect itterative attacks. I've decided against using it IMC, but, here it is:

Weapon Speed Factor and Reach:

Some weapons are lighter, more agile or ‘wieldy’ than others. To represent this, weapons are given a speed factor, from 3 to 6. Low Speed Factor weapons allow the wielder to strike and recover more quickly and easily, high Speed Factor weapons are more unwieldy, but generally longer, in addition to being more damaging. The 'Speed Factor' doesn't directly affect initiative, rather, it's the divisor to BAB for the number of attacks you get. Thus, for instance, an unarmed character with a BAB of +8, could make a full attack at +8/+5/+2, while the same character armed with a greatsword would make a full attack at +8/+2.

Weapon .................Speed Factor
Tiny/unarmed ................3*
Small/Rapier ................4
Medium ......................5
Large/Bastard Sword/War Ax...6
Double Weapon...............5/5

Modifiers:

Improbable weapon...........+1 (Gnome Hooked Hammer, Double Sword)
Impractical weapon..........+2 (Dire Flail, Spiked Chain, Bladed Gauntlet)
Absurd weapon...............+4 (Mercurial Greatsword, Gyre-Spike)
Finessed Weapon .............-1 (min 3).
Monk* wielding a special Monk weapon
&nbsp&nbsp (Kama, Nunchaku, Siangham)... -1 (min 3).

Large Creature, unarmed......4
Huge Creature, unarmed.......5
Gigantic Creature, unarmed.......6
Colossal Creature, unarmed.......7

Speed Factor is used as the divisor for iterative attacks. Thus, a human or smaller creature attacking unarmed with a BAB of 6 gets +6/+3 attacks, while the same character with a Rapier makes +6/+2, with a longsword +6/+1, and with a Greatsword only one attack at +6.

The flip side of a smaller, faster weapon is that it’s generally shorter. Thus, larger weapons, even if they don’t have Reach, do have a reach advantage over smaller ones. When a character armed with a weapon one size-category smaller than his opponent’s first engages (enters melee) he provokes an attack of opportunity. This only occurs on the initial engagement. On subsequent rounds, as long as neither character takes more than a 5’ step away from the other, no additional AoOs are provoked by the wielder of the smaller weapon. If an attacker is armed with a weapon two or more size-classes smaller than the defender, he provokes an Attack of Opportunity every round that he threatens the defender, as he tries to get inside the guard of the defender long enough to make a credible attack. The wielder of the smaller weapon can choose not to threaten an adjacent defender on a given round, if he wishes.

*Since the BAB divisor of 3 is available to anyone using a light enough weapon, Monkish BAB can be allowed to stack normally.

Feats:

Spring Attack: Spring Attack negates the AoO provoked by threatening or engaging with a smaller weapon.

Mobility: Mobility adds it’s +4 Dodge Bonus to AC vs an AoO provoked by initially engaging while armed with a smaller weapon than your opponent. It does not help with the AoO provoked by threatening an opponent with a weapon two size-classes smaller than his own.

Improved Unarmed Strike: Improved Unarmed Strike negates the AoO for attacking unarmed (as normal) and the AoO for threatening an opponent armed with a weapon two size-classes greater (medium weapon vs a medium unarmed attacker, for instance) under this system. It does not negate the AoO for initial engagement, however.

Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization reduces the Speed Factor of the weapon by 1, to a minimum of 3.

Weapon Speed [General, Fighter]
&nbsp&nbsp You have trained exhaustively with your weapon of choice and can strike and recover with it faster than normal.
&nbsp&nbsp Prerequisites: Dex 13+ (same size or smaller weapon) or STR 13+ (same size or larger weapon) , Weapon Focus, BAB 4+
&nbsp&nbsp Benefits: Pick one weapon. That weapon’s Speed Factor is reduced by one, to a minimum of 3, for purposes of determining your iterative attacks when you fight with it in melee.
&nbsp&nbsp Special: Weapon Speed and Weapon Specialization stack, but the minimum Speed Factor for any weapon wielded by any character is still 3. You may take this Feat multiple times, each time you do, it applies to a different weapon.
 

I too am a fan of the old initiative system and have been considering converting the 2E system to 3E, including casting times for spells but have decided it is too much effort! I loved the initiative roll + weapon speed vs iniitative roll + spell castig time to see which action happened first but am slowly getting used to the new system.

I only converted to 3E a couple of months ago so maybe I'm just mourning the "good old days" of "an orc leaps out of gully to your left, roll for surprise." I can't get used to the "an orc leaps out of the gully, roll for...errr a spot check, or is it listen?... oh what the hell, just roll a dice!"

But I digress, my main beef so far has been with the initiative system, trying to sort out the order each battle and remember it each round (yeah, I know write it down) so last night I tried a cunning new plan, I (in my infinite wisdom -as DM, or lack thereof!) I decreed that we roll once only for the whole party and that the dice roll is modified by the individual characters initiative & dex modifiers. Basically, in all combats actions will be resolved in the same order. At the start of the night they figured out their initiative bonuses and kept the same order. One player rolls for initiative and we resolved things in the same order each round.
It worked well and was easier (for me) to keep track of who acts next.

of course there will be occasions (single combat between party members for instance) when we'll use individual initiatives but for general combats we were all happy with this little house rule. My next crusade is now to bring back the initiative each round!

Stormdale
 

Jack the more I look at your solution the more I like it. I had completely forgotten about the 1.5 STR on two-handed weapons! And I like that swords go 0, -1, -2, -3. Thanks again!
 
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First of all, Fenris, i use too to roll initiative each round, and think that there are differences between weapons' speed. So there's my house rule, hope that u like it.

Weapons and Initiative
When we use the word "size", we actually refer to the size of the creature who's using the weapon. "Steps" are the difference in sizes in numbers (i.e. Medium - Small: 1 step, and vice versa)

Melee Weapons
Tab 1.1

Size Vs. Weapon Steps Initiative modifier
S < W 2 He cannot Handle it
S < W 1 -2
S = W 0 0
S > W 1 +1
S > W 2 +2

Net and whip are independent from the size: they have an initiative modifier of - respectively -1 and +1 for the first attack roll, +2 to the following attacks on the same target.


Tab 1.2
Type Iniziative Modifier
Piercing +1
Slashing 0
Bludgeoning -1

When a weapon has two types without difference in damage (i.e. Halberd), if S < W the type of the weapon is the one with the lowest initiative

Throwing Weapons
We consider throwing weapons all the weapons that can be utilized at a distance without any mechanical tools (so NO bows, crossbows, slings)

Tab 2.1
Size Vs. Weapons Steps Iniziative modifier
S > W 2+ +2
S > W 1 +1
S = W 0 0
S < W 1 -2

Mechanical throwing weapons

Tab 3.1

Weapon Type Iniziative Modifier
Slings -1
Crossbows (any) +1
Short Bow 0
Long Bow -1
Composite Short Bow -1
Composite Long Bow -2

We decided to have just a class for the various types of crossbows because they differ only in the reloading time, which is already set in the PH

Tab 3.2

Bow Type Minimum STR Required
Short Bow 8
Long Bow 10
Composite Short Bow 13
Composite Long Bow 15
MW Composite Bows(+3 dmge) 16
MW Composite Bows(+4 dmg) 18

The minimum strength required for the MasterWork composite bows is not influenced by the type of the bows themselves


It's impossible to use any bows when there are differences (in positive as in negative) of two or more "steps" between the size of the archer and the one of the bow.
 

Fenris said:
Jack the more I look at your solution the more I like it. I had completely forgotten about the 1.5 STR on two-handed weapons! And I like that swords go 0, -1, -2, -3. Thanks again!

Glad I could help. I just realized that this makes mithril weapons useful... Since mithril loiwers the weight of the weapon.

Anyway, look up "angular momentum" in a physic text, if you want to know why some weapons are "slower" to swing than others... The weight of the weapon has something to do with it, but so does the balance. To understand what I mean, take a golf club and swing it by its head single-handed... The extra weight of the head at the tip makes it rather ungainly as a sword, even though golf clubs aren't very heavy. Now, grab it by the shaft way down near the head of the club, and swing it. It should be much easier to swing, because the long handle is counter-balaced by the weight of the head.

That's why swords have pommels... The pommel is a heavy weight hung below the hilt to act as a balance to the weight of the blade.
 

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