Weapon Speeds and Initiative

[Fenris]

I always liked the weapon speeds from the previous editions. The lack of them bothered me in this edition, but I want to do something different. I would like opinions on whether this system would work and whether it is balanced.

Each weapon is assigned an initiative penalty based upon size, weight, and use.
Samples:
Battle axe -2
Warhammer -2
Heavy mace -1
Great axe -3
Long spear -2
Light Flail -2
This penalty can be countered by a characters strength bonus.
This way stronger characters can wield heavier weapons more easily (faster) but not nessecarily more effectively. This does not affect the Dex initaitve modifier which represent how fast the character is but how well a charcter can move a heavy weapon. So a character with a 15 Str (+2) could use a battle axe or a mace without an initiative penalty, but if using a great axe would get a -1 for the weapon. I am inclined to add strength penalties to this since a weak character cannot swing a battle axe as well but is that too harsh?

 

[Crothian]

I'm not sure how raw strength can help with speed. I can understand to a point for the really heavy item, but weapons like flails aren't any faster with strong people.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Weapon Speeds make no sense with the 3e cyclic initiative.
What happens when a character changes weapons, or is not holding a weapon when initiative is rolled?

Under your system, a character who is unarmed, and draws a greataxe in the first round, has a better initiative than one who had a greataxe in hand at the start of the fight.

Weapon Speeds actually make little sense at all, but let's not go into that.

Characters with low strength have enough disadvantages in melee already, no need to give them more.

Geoff.

 

[~Joseph~]

this was written by shawn renalds, one of the major writers of 3rd edition. you might want to read this before making any more statements like this
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/weaponspeeds.html

 

[Crothian]

If the guy wants to use weapon speeds, I think he should be allowed. This is the House Rules Forum.

 

[Blacksad]

You'll need to rules that when a character take a "quicker" weapon, he doesn't move in the initiative order, and that with a slower one he move down the difference, so that from unarmed to greataxe, he goes down 3 (and need a move equivalent action, that the one who already wield a greataxe doesn't need).

It will only provide a bonus or disadvantage in the first round, it's fine if your combat have a short duration like two to four round, but if most of your fight are around ten rounds, then that optional rule haven't a great value.

I think you should drop the strength bonus (anyway, it will be strong character that use those weapons), as the rule would only affect the first blow, even a weak character can prepare his weapon so that it will do a quick attack (still slower than a dagger).

If you want to balance this rule with something, I sugest a bigger init disadvantage, and an increased critical multiplier.

That's how I will do it if I used such a rule, SKR (and Geoff Watson) have another point of vue , the most convincing argument in this case is if you attack someone with an axe with a dagger, that person woul have the opportunity to attack you while you attemp to touch him (you have a shorter reach).

To correct this add that attacking someone with a smaller weapon than your adversary produce an AoO (natural weapons are two size smaller than the creture using them IIRC).

Then maybe you should remove the crit multiplier bonus of heavy weapon, and/or increase the crit range of small weapon (as in: it is easier to hit the part of the body that you want to hit).

It is if the goal is to finaly end with weapon that are as much atractive as in a regular game! If the goal is to favor some weapon, adjust as you wish.

 

[wolfpunk]

Have to agree with Crothian.

Fenris asked for help on his weapon speed system, if you don't have advice don't post. If you have a suggestion, even if it is a criticism of it, then post, but don't simply say don't do it.

That being said, I have a suggestion. Rather then making an initiative for each and every weapon I would make a chart by type. So I would rank weapons in groups by type of damage and proficiency type.

Slash simple weapons, slash martial weapons, slash exotic weapons.

Now I realize this allows for some terrible inaccuracies, but the chart would be fast. Also if a particular weapon was a problem, you could make a single rule for it, rather then for all weapons.

Also for considering initiative while in battle. Your character starts unarmed. You have no penalty. Your initiative is 17. Later in combat you pull out a dagger, lets say the speed factor is -1. Your initiative becomes 16 for the remainder of the battle. If you put the dagger away, your iniative is still 16 I would rule.

Just some ideas, hope it helps.

 

[Fenris]

Thank you all for your comments. I did read the Sean Reynolds rant. And the big difference is that I always have and always will roll initiative every round, yes it is more rolls but adds more flavor and realism to combat. That feature takes care of weapon change concerns. The thing most of you missed is that Strenth negates this penalty. A strong charcater will not see a difference at all!
Wolfpunk I like you idea about categories though to simplify things. So I will work on that. I did like the point in the SKR rant regarding reach offsetting speed, so I will restrict the weapons I do this for to the heaviest weapons. For me it is difficult to imagine a 10 str individual swinging a greatsword as quickly as an 18 str individual. In fact the system supports this. The stronger individual does more damage, he does this by having more velocity at the time of impact, to achieve the higher velocity he needed to create more acceleration on the weapon, and that higher acceleration results in the weapon traveling faster. Yes most characters wielding greataxes and greatswords will usually have the strength needed and will not see a difference. This is merely an attempt to place a soft strength minimum on a weapon that deters but does not prevent a character from using a heavy heavy weapon. Again thank you all for your comments and I llok forward to any additional.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm.

Ok, I am not gonna repeat the Sean Reynolds part...

Another point. Why do you think heavy weapons are slower? Have you ever used them? I heard many dagger fanatics telling fairy tales about how fast two daggers are... Yet they will never hit as long as you don't have another friend with two daggers next to you that hops into the bastard sword of the enemy to block it from skewering you.

I had pondered over that thing too... since I liked rules that differ between some weapons...

I proposed some flavour rules once (very unrealistic) that gave some weapons a plus to damage, swords a bonus to parry (AC), axes and hammers more damage and long weapons a little bonus to initiative.

If you think some weapons are faster, then the long weapons win the race. Even a greatsword will be first against a longsword. If the wielder is proficient.

 

[Fenris]

This is less about a greataxe vs a dagger and more about a stronger person wielding a heavy weapon more quickly. In thinking about it I am only going to apply it to those cleaving/crushing and slashing weapons that are swung. Piercing weapons are faster than these. Darklone, yes, I have used heavy weapons, both through simulations and as a fencer. Trust me a heavier weapon is slower. Honestly, most characters using these heavier weapons are barbarians and fighter, whose strengths will negate the initiative penalty. This is a mechanism to say that if a fighter and a rogue square up with greatswords, the rouges lower strength would cause him to swing the sword slower. His reflexes would still help him.
So I think that I will do the following
medium sized swung weapons -1
large swung weapons -2
exempt are spiked chain, scythe
Bastard sword 1h -2, 2h -1.
This is a throw back I know but until I have a player with a buckler altering his iniative it will be fine.