Weapons of Legacy: Balancing levelled items

JoeGKushner said:
But do you feel that the reduced ritual costs help make the items more appealing? I know that almost any class, like say a wizard, will lose some caster progression, but the d8 hit dice is sweet and the ability to use more customization on legacy items also looks tempting.

It's only really a PrC I'd take as a non-caster. Losing two levels of spellcasting requires a BIG recompense, and an Item of Legacy isn't it. The reduced ritual costs are minimal; more interesting is the customisable abilities, but even then there isn't much for a wizard.

Note that a spellcasting Item of Legacy is normally killing slots 1-8 by level 20, and a -2 caster level penalty. That's not too harsh; but losing two levels of progression is terrible.

Cheers!
 

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From my eye, it seems like most of the spellcasting-oriented WoL balance out ... I.E. you lose slots, but generally gain Spell Like Abilities from the weapon which are equal to, or nearly equal to, the spell levels you lose ... sometimes they're spells not normally on your list, sometimes they are on your list (where-upon it's really just forcing you to choose a spell, no?).

I, personally, really like WoL. Oddly so. I thought it would be quite poor, and only looked at a friend's copy when he brought it over. I think people are unduly turned off by the penalties, because that's all you see ... you don't see those penalties applied to an actual PC of the level we're encountering.

A -2 penalty to attacks (not BAB) seems HORRIBLE ... but if it comes in at lvl 15, what does your total attack bonus normally look like anyway? +17 to +15? On the low end? Not to mention that most weapons include a bonus of some sort to an ability score ... a Finesse-able weapon with -2 Attack Penalty, but +4 Dex, is actually, at the end of the day, just giving you a +2 Armor Class adjustment. Alot of the weapons do this.

It averages out to less than, say, a Level Adjustment or even taking levels in a PrC or Multiclassing, most times ... a fighter who gains quite a few spells, but a -2 Attack Bonus ... is this worse than if he had just multi-classed into Cleric at some point? -2hp is equivalent to getting a HD two sizes smaller on the levels you're hit ... Fighter (d10) -> (d6) for a handful of levels, but keeps BAB ... a -2 Attack Penalty doesn't mess with your Iterative Attack progression, unlike multi-classing into a non-1/1 BAB class.

I think the negative reaction is the same sort of negative that came out against d20 Modern's base classes and Wealth mechanic. Alot of people LOOKED at it, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. How many people have PLAYED it?

So far I haven't seen any testimonials from players: "Man, I got a WoL and it just nerfed up my character so bad I had to retire him for lost. -2 Attack Penalty? What were they smoking, I suddenly couldn't hit the broad side of an orc!"

--fje
 

My problem with Weapons of Legacy is that I can't see any of the players actually wanting to pay the high price for the magic abilities that will only get used occasionally

-2 attack penalty, -3 saves, -16 hp -- these things really really hurt every single adventure

The offsets aren't worth the cost

I had hoped that they were going to do weapons of legacy as a "get one item and it powers up as you level" kind of deal instead they made a system better suited for soul eating swords and cursed items. I would probably never use the system except maybe to cost magic items (so x effect at will is worth x gp)

YMMV
 

Quick thing to point out in the calculations:

A -1 to attack with a +3 weapon is not exactly the same thing as a +2 weapon. Almost, but not quite; of course, I suppose how often, if ever, sundering is used, among other things.
 

Our DM has given us beefed up items of legacy. My warlock has a +1 spiked gauntlet that he was able to unlock at 6th level and get some nice least and lesser abilities. My DM's philosophy is that these items will be the best magic items that we will ever possess. Nothing else that we come across will come close. So, they are better than normal.
Legacy of Damnation +1 spiked gauntlet damages as adamantine, silver, and evil. It has the least abilities of mage hand 3/day (15 lbs) and the lesser abilities of missiles of force 3/day (three magic missiles that can be infused onto an eldritch blast), maximized false life 1/day, and the penalty of -1 to all attack rolls. The spike has a scorpion stinger design, while the gauntlet appears to be made of scorpion carapaces.

The Legacy of Damnation is an item of legacy that was locked onto Zoltan’s hand from a seemingly dead balor who exclaimed “I will not be denied!” before expiring. The balor Pelork was an officer of the demonic army; his brother Cherish now hunts for the item. A paladin was the one who was able to keep it the longest until he returned to Shavorath to fight the eternal fight. The paladin was Zarrtan, Zoltan’s father and the second to the king of Breland. This item was originally from Shavorath and it has been passed from demon to demon. Although it may find itself in other planes, it always returns to Shavorath, the great battlefield. The item itself isn’t evil; the owners have almost always been evil. Zoltan is the first of two have not been evil. Perhaps he can do what others have not: keep it from evil's hands.
So while we are in Shavorth we encounter a dying balor and solar. The solar instructs the warforged psionic warrior to take his sword out of the balor and to use it for good. When he does, the balor snaps up from unconsiousness and slams the gauntlet onto Zoltans hand. Right away, the warforged and Zoltan have an animosity to each other. There relationship is "indifferent" and only professional right now, but will probably worsen. Later we encounter Cherish, who looks human, and he asks me to give him the gauntlet. While we are talking to him he starts to severely insult my character. When my character has been goaded enough to "give him the gauntlet," Cherish flick-of-the-wrists/sneak attacks my character and one-shots him into unconsiousness. The rest of the party pound on him, then he teleports away.

Back on Eberron, my character finds out that to unlock his item he needs to touch it to a tear of the child. Stormreach has been devastated by a storm so I go around and help people out, helping rebuild what they had or with food or whatever I can do. Sneaky bastard Zoltan is, he on the lookout for any child who is tearfully overwrought with gratitude by his deeds. And lo and behold eventually one turns up. So, he tries to sleight of hand the tear away with his gaunlet spike, but does so clumsilly. The child's face is marked by the gauntlet spike and the mark doesn't come off. The mother and child are creeped out by my warlock. He tries to diplomize and bluff his way out of it, but I roll crap. Eventually, I just hand the mother 10 gp and walk away. "You're going to a special place in hell reserved for child abusers and people who talk in movie theaters." -- Shepard, Firefly

Later on, Zoltan is in his inn room with his new Umbergen cleric girlfriend Loren. He has a Butterfly Effect moment and finds himself suddenly choking her while they are both in bed. He lets go and calls for his friends. Loren is trying pass it off as OK, which is concerning me. He inform his friends exactly what happened and seperates himself from Loren. Loren tries to assure Zoltan that it was OK and if he could just go back upstairs with her. Another PC wonders outloud if Loren isn't actually Cherish when "Loren" flick-of-the-wrists/sneak attacks that PC and one-shots him to death. We of course pound on him, and he of course teleports away. We then find out that he has kidnapped Loren and his tormenting her in captivity. I have a Book of Vile Darkness realization "I have just had sex with my nemisis!" :O

Zoltan is creeped out that his item possesed him and choked his "girlfriend" and asks another PC to chop off his gauntleted hand. It's pointed out that the gauntet probably detected his nemesis and protected him from him. Hmmm...OK. But Zoltan does not like his item anymore. The next level he picks up the Craft Arms & Armor feat and starts "hacking" his item. First he reforms the "damages as evil" aspect to "damages as good". Now he is adding the Merciful special quality to the gauntlet. He will eventually add Holy, Bane Ousider (evil), and a continuous protection from evil to it. He has learned that this item unlocks a flaming quality; he will change this to shocking after it manifests. This item will not be used to harm celestials anymore and will from now on be a tool against evil.

Gosh that was long. But my point is that my DM is using these items of legacy to thier fullest potential. Other characters are going through similar experiences with theirs; although I'm intensifying mine because I'm violently opposing the destiny that my item has implied for my character. Our items are more powerful than the by-the-book items. My DM is a power gamer. He loves playing with power as a player, and he loves giving power to his PCs to play with.
 
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JoeGKushner said:
But do you feel that the reduced ritual costs help make the items more appealing?

I think the ritual costs are really cheap as they are... it is only once you reach level 11+ that they start getting expensive... and not really then.

Cheers!
 

WizarDru said:
Quick thing to point out in the calculations:

A -1 to attack with a +3 weapon is not exactly the same thing as a +2 weapon. Almost, but not quite; of course, I suppose how often, if ever, sundering is used, among other things.

Yes, it's worth remembering. (Also, WoL have better hardness/hp than regular weapons in any case).

Cheers!
 


MerricB said:
The system used in Weapons of Legacy for dealing with these powerful items seems to be one of the most controversial that Wizards has come up with... if not the most controversial...

Great analysis in this thread! It makes me more convinced than before that WoL system sucks. It could have been much simpler to run without the penalties and with higher costs, but then the book itself would not have been so much required, hence they needed to make it more complicated. Not worth it for the characters nor for the players IMHO.
 

I went and designed a new Item of Legacy for my Age of Worms game:

The Staff of Dragon Tears

Nonlegacy Game Statistics: +1/masterwork quarterstaff; Cost 2,600 gp. +2 competence bonus to Spot checks.
Omen: When the staff is held, a dragon eye appears in the amber and surveys the area. A fiery halo appears around the amber whenever the wielder casts a spell, disappating after a moment or two.

LEGACY RITUALS
Least ritual: Cost: 3,500 gp. Feat Granted: Least Legacy (The Staff of Dragon Tears)
Lesser ritual: Cost: 13,500 gp. Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy (The Staff of Dragon Tears)
Greater ritual: You must find the great gold wyrm Thalentius and offer him the staff. If he considers you worthy, you retain the staff and gain access to its greater powers. Cost: 43,000 gp. Feat Granted: Greater Legacy (The Staff of Dragon Tears)

Pre-reqs: Ability to cast arcane spells; Speak Language (Elven); Speak Language (Draconic); Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks.

5th: 3/day – magic missile (CL 5)
6th: lose 1st lvl spell slot
7th: -1 saves, -1 caster level; 1/day – fireball (CL 5)
8th: -1 skill checks; lose 2nd level spell slot
9th: +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma
10th: lose 3rd level spell slot; 3/day – Lesser Enlarge Spell
11th: At will – knock (CL 10)
12th: lose 4th level spell slot
13th: -2 caster level; Charisma +4; Magical Cypher (detect magic, read magic, arcane mark at will)
14th: lose 5th level spell slot; 3/day - magic missile (CL 10) (replaces 5th level power); Concentration checks +5
15th: -2 skill checks; 3/day – fireball (CL 10) (replaces 7th lvl ability); 1/day-resist energy 10 (CL 5)
16th: lose 6th level spell slot; 3/day – Mirror Image (CL 10)
17th: 1/day – Chain Lightning
18th: lose 7th level spell slot; Charisma +6; Lesser Maximise 3/day
19th: Lesser Quicken Spell 3/day (even for sorcerers!)
20th: lose 8th level spell slot; Empower Spell 3/day

###

Major abilities:
+6 enhancement to Charisma (36,000 gp)
Empower Spell 3/day (rod, 32,500 gp)
Lesser Quicken (rod, 35,000 gp), oh and applies to sorcerer spells!
Lesser Maximise (rod, 14,000 gp)
total: 127,500 gp + spells
actual cost: 60,000 gp

Penalties:
-2 skills (minor)
-2 caster level (can be negated with Practiced Spellcaster!)
slots 1st-8th (mostly negated by staff spells)
-1 saves (minor)

Cheers!
 

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