Well that was fun...

[breschau]

(This is a post about my dislike for the new version of D&D. If you can't handle that then stop now.)

Wow, now that the books are out... I just don't like 4th edition.

I have been all over the 4th ed news and eating it up, so just know that I'm not a hater who waited for today to let loose. I have been a long time lover of 4th and the juicy previews, but with the book in my hand, it falls flat. Just like the trailer in the theater that gives away the best bits of the flick, all the crunch we've been hashing over is all the good stuff.

The races: each race has one or two classes they can play without sucking. At first I was in the "just because you don't have a class specific ability bonus doesn't mean you suck camp," but now, after reading the book. That's really pretty much it. Nail on the head. All the powers for the ranger are based on either str or dex. They're combat powers, duh. But that's the point, with every class getting spells and with them all tied to ability scores, it's just stupid to avoid the bonuses. And the warlock, attacks... with Con? And the dwarf is one of the only +Con races? And no "you should really look at the warlock class" bit in the racial description.

The ideas of the thing were where it's at. I was expecting a total sweep. A refreshing change, something akin to SWSE vs Revised. But no. 4E vs 3.x is barely a puff of air from a fat kid's gob.

My brother got me into the game when I was 8 with AD&D. I remember reading though those and being inspired, the text sparked my imagination and made me want to play. So far, with these new ones, not so much.

In the old books you had dozens of pages dedicated to spells. Non-casters bitched about how much space was taken up by them (at least ours did). Now, you have four columns (two pages) of a class followed by 19 columns (ten pages) of powers, not counting paragon paths or epic destinies. That's each and every class, times eight classes, not counting rituals.

In the old books you could sit back and read all about what a ranger was supposed to do. How they acted and what they did. Now, you get barely two paragraphs because they had to make room for all the kewl powers that str8 pwn.

Paragon paths and epic destinies are good. Much better than prestige classes. Great job guys. But with each class you barely include enough at-will powers to create the two sample builds, what the hell? A few more would have been nice. Better at-wills to swap out at higher level, better advancement of existing at-wills (not just a bit more damage at 21), something.

Feats: great, many useful feats. Stupidly organized. By tier is good, but why stop there? You killed the sacred cow of placing all the spells in one section in the back of the book, but kept the feats as an alphabetical list. You justify breaking the powers up and putting them with the classes, but not the class specific feats? Or racial feats? You don't even list them in the race or class so we know the ones to look for? What the hell?

I liked the idea of everyone having powers, that the classes would be more balanced. I just can't stand the clutter of the execution. But, I can see exactly where this is going... endless splat books with powers, and power sources which are, I agree, essentially fluff and indistinct.

This isn't a give me back my game. Or a wish for the banner days of old games. I have found issue with each and every version of D&D to date. I've played them all and had a blast. Usually houseruling here and there was enough. But this time, it doesn't even look all that good on the page. That's not a slam against the layout, design, or art. Those are all handled quite well (from what I've seen). The old stuff brimmed with ideas, practically shot off sparks to ignite the imagination, these just read like instruction manuals that require additional purchases to use. Bummer.

During one of my long phone conversations with my bro today I came up with my dislike for the new game in a perfect nutshell. "It's like buying the rulebook for a board game when the board and pieces are sold separately." I have played D&D with minis my whole life. I think people who play without them are silly. It's part of the game. However, it's an optional part of the game. No longer.

At least with games like Warhammer you know it's a minis battle game. This edition reads like an RPG in name only. Sure, you can still make a character, but you only get to pick their battle powers. Then it's d20s at dawn. Huzzah.

Even my recent games of D&D have used minis, but they were always optional. Now, like so many have said, their use is written into the rules. That really pisses me off. My bro is a smart guy, he said it best, "they know where gaming is going. It's board games and minis. They're just following the money." Sure. Great. But where does that leave me and those like me who want an honest to gods RPG?

I know that role-playing is what you make of it. No system can really force players into their characters or make them act certain things out. But to barely bother with the thin veneer like this? Come on. The skill challenges are nice, but damn. Really? That's the best you can do with all that money and resources?

No, I'm not downplaying the hard work and efforts of the game designers. I know they love this game and have put their hearts and souls into this. But, just because they love it and have worked hard on it doesn't mean it's great. Their efforts should be applauded, and I will do so now. Thank you for all the hard work.

But how hard was it really to format a bunch of magic card style powers into DDM format and slap the D&D rpg logo on it?

I've already poked around other fantasy RPG systems but really, nothing is sticking out. I wonder if White Wolf's Graduation promo applies to 4th edition books too?

Almost forgot: Oh yeah, the freaking warforged have already been errata'ed? ON THE FIRST DAY! FIRST-GOD-DAMN-DAY? Nice. Put out a book without the right words in it to boost and keep DDI subscriptions. Nice.

 

[Sitara]

I really resent your stupid comment regarding "people who don't use minitures are silly'.
I never use mini's I feel they take away from the narrative. In my games, and in the game of any true roleplayer the narrative always comes first, especially over the rules.

Therefore, if someone doesn't use mini'sperhaps they are not silly, perhaps they are more creative and imaginaitive.

Anyhow, I agree with your comment on the skill challenges. I mean seriously, who wasn't using something like that in 3e and other d20 games? Also, its very crude a system and not very exciting in play atall.

 

[Vaeron]

I can't say as I agree with a single thing in your post, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I haven't seen the Warforged errata, are you sure you aren't referring to the playable Warforged as opposed to the monster Warforged? If you didn't notice, none of the races (human, elf, what have you) in the pHB exactly match the skills/feats/powers assigned the monster versions in the Monster Manual. Monsters aren't constructed using race/class anymore like they were in 3e. If there's some actual piece of errata out there, a correction of the DDI article perhaps, I missed it and apologize for misunderstanding.

And I think that four powers for each class are more than sufficient, considering you can only pick one or two of them at a time.

 

[Daelkyr]

Out of all my concerns and hesitations for 4e, I would label the inclusion of only four (on average) at-will powers per class ... most suckie? Two more each would have been preferable to me. That way there would be much more variety.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Anyhow, I agree with your comment on the skill challenges. I mean seriously, who wasn't using something like that in 3e and other d20 games? Also, its very crude a system and not very exciting in play atall.

I wasn't. I followed the rules. If you wanted to convince someone all you had to do was make a diplomacy check high enough to make them friendly, they'd do almost anything you asked.

If you wanted to get away from guards who were chasing you, we would track your movement rate each round based on the terrain in front of you, counting the squares. Then we'd track the guards movement. We'd go in initiative order until you got away or they caught up. Since movement rates were basically identical, it was impossible to get away and the only choice was to find a magical way to speed up or to kill off the people chasing you or slow them down in some way.

If you wanted to search a room, you make a search check and if you get high enough you find what you were looking for.

The thought that you could take a goal like: Convince the king, escape from the guards, track down the monster and break them down to rolls of multiple different types so that it involved the entire party never once occurred to me before I read the 4e DMG.

If you needed to track the enemies down, the ranger just kept making track checks every hour until they caught up. If someone had said "I climb a tree and see if I can see any sign of the enemies like bent bushes, a fire or the like", I would have said "No, you see nothing, the rules say that you need the track feat to track...and you don't have it, so you don't see any signs." Anyone who wasn't the ranger was supposed to sit around and watch the ranger roll dice until you caught up.

 

[unan oranis]

(This is a post about my dislike for the new version of D&D. If you can't handle that then stop now.)

Wow, now that the books are out... I just don't like 4th edition.

I have been all over the 4th ed news and eating it up, so just know that I'm not a hater who waited for today to let loose. I have been a long time lover of 4th and the juicy previews, but with the book in my hand, it falls flat. Just like the trailer in the theater that gives away the best bits of the flick, all the crunch we've been hashing over is all the good stuff.

Sorry pal, but you are probably just burnt out in general.

Not only is 4e self evidently a winner, but many of your points go beyond a stale, contridictary opinion and are just patently wrong.

The races: each race has one or two classes they can play without sucking. At first I was in the "just because you don't have a class specific ability bonus doesn't mean you suck camp," but now, after reading the book. That's really pretty much it. Nail on the head. All the powers for the ranger are based on either str or dex. They're combat powers, duh. But that's the point, with every class getting spells and with them all tied to ability scores, it's just stupid to avoid the bonuses. And the warlock, attacks... with Con? And the dwarf is one of the only +Con races? And no "you should really look at the warlock class" bit in the racial description.

Pick a side man. At the end of your post you complain that there isn't enough rules support for role playing. So are the tiny racial bonuses restricting you to certain classes, or would any amount of role playing support be wasted on you?

The ideas of the thing were where it's at. I was expecting a total sweep. A refreshing change, something akin to SWSE vs Revised. But no. 4E vs 3.x is barely a puff of air from a fat kid's gob.

My brother got me into the game when I was 8 with AD&D. I remember reading though those and being inspired, the text sparked my imagination and made me want to play. So far, with these new ones, not so much.

In the old books you had dozens of pages dedicated to spells. Non-casters bitched about how much space was taken up by them (at least ours did). Now, you have four columns (two pages) of a class followed by 19 columns (ten pages) of powers, not counting paragon paths or epic destinies. That's each and every class, times eight classes, not counting rituals.

In the old books you could sit back and read all about what a ranger was supposed to do. How they acted and what they did. Now, you get barely two paragraphs because they had to make room for all the kewl powers that str8 pwn.

The quality of fluff from edition to edition varies by opinion, but to claim any of them have been especially mind blowing is stretching things.
Snarkiness aside, the magic was never in the books. It was in you, the whole time. Magic gone? It was never in the books so that means... yes, i'm afraid your fu has become weak.

Paragon paths and epic destinies are good. Much better than prestige classes. Great job guys. But with each class you barely include enough at-will powers to create the two sample builds, what the hell? A few more would have been nice. Better at-wills to swap out at higher level, better advancement of existing at-wills (not just a bit more damage at 21), something.

Feats: great, many useful feats. Stupidly organized. By tier is good, but why stop there? You killed the sacred cow of placing all the spells in one section in the back of the book, but kept the feats as an alphabetical list. You justify breaking the powers up and putting them with the classes, but not the class specific feats? Or racial feats? You don't even list them in the race or class so we know the ones to look for? What the hell?

I liked the idea of everyone having powers, that the classes would be more balanced. I just can't stand the clutter of the execution. But, I can see exactly where this is going... endless splat books with powers, and power sources which are, I agree, essentially fluff and indistinct.

This isn't a give me back my game. Or a wish for the banner days of old games. I have found issue with each and every version of D&D to date. I've played them all and had a blast. Usually houseruling here and there was enough. But this time, it doesn't even look all that good on the page. That's not a slam against the layout, design, or art. Those are all handled quite well (from what I've seen). The old stuff brimmed with ideas, practically shot off sparks to ignite the imagination, these just read like instruction manuals that require additional purchases to use. Bummer.

Again, the self contradictions...

You complain that they have filled the book up with too many powers at the expense of fluff, but that the whole things a set up because you don't have enough powers to play?

The organisation is terrible and cluttered, but the layout is handled quite well?

The book doesn't inspire ideas, but your mind is screaming for more at-wills?

During one of my long phone conversations with my bro today I came up with my dislike for the new game in a perfect nutshell. "It's like buying the rulebook for a board game when the board and pieces are sold separately." I have played D&D with minis my whole life. I think people who play without them are silly. It's part of the game. However, it's an optional part of the game. No longer.

At least with games like Warhammer you know it's a minis battle game. This edition reads like an RPG in name only. Sure, you can still make a character, but you only get to pick their battle powers. Then it's d20s at dawn. Huzzah.

Even my recent games of D&D have used minis, but they were always optional. Now, like so many have said, their use is written into the rules. That really pisses me off. My bro is a smart guy, he said it best, "they know where gaming is going. It's board games and minis. They're just following the money." Sure. Great. But where does that leave me and those like me who want an honest to gods RPG?

So people who don't play with minis are silly, but you are upset that you are expected to play with minis?
People are expected to play, but not even neccesarily, with at least a dungeon master tracking things on a piece of graph paper, which is actually suggested in the new dmg.

I WISH THERE WERE ***MORE*** WAYS TO SPEND MONEY ON MY FAVORITE HOBBY.

It is extremely rare to find a situation that yields true, real happiness in exchange for mere mortal coin.

I know that role-playing is what you make of it. No system can really force players into their characters or make them act certain things out. But to barely bother with the thin veneer like this? Come on. The skill challenges are nice, but damn. Really? That's the best you can do with all that money and resources?

No, I'm not downplaying the hard work and efforts of the game designers. I know they love this game and have put their hearts and souls into this. But, just because they love it and have worked hard on it doesn't mean it's great. Their efforts should be applauded, and I will do so now. Thank you for all the hard work.

Ok, you might not like what you see, and I might not see what any of your points are, but one thing I do know is that you ARE downplaying their hard work with this statement that follows...

But how hard was it really to format a bunch of magic card style powers into DDM format and slap the D&D rpg logo on it?

I don't mean to be rude, in fact, I'd like to thank you for posting here.

But how hard is it to not ***** on a messageboard?

EDIT: jokes aren't so funny when they are spelled out, but for the record i'm mimicing the way you couched the put down on the design team to illustrate a point; as I state below I wouldn't reply to your critique if I wasn't taking you seriously. No offence intended.

I've already poked around other fantasy RPG systems but really, nothing is sticking out. I wonder if White Wolf's Graduation promo applies to 4th edition books too?

Almost forgot: Oh yeah, the freaking warforged have already been errata'ed? ON THE FIRST DAY! FIRST-GOD-DAMN-DAY? Nice. Put out a book without the right words in it to boost and keep DDI subscriptions. Nice.

Errated? The MM entry for the warforged was expanded brilliantly, if there is a corresponding errata to the MM entry hats off to WOTC.

Oh right, they should have made that nine pages of content into a splat book and sold it.

Kripes full circle eh?

Anyway, if you can handle constructive criticism, I think your post really does come off a bit insulting, but for the sake of argument I'll take you seriously.

I started when I was 8 too, and my story is simular to yours.

You want to see the thrill and joy thats been promised? Give it a fair shake for your players. If -they- are pumped and having a blast, you'll find that "magic" back in the game, irrespective of what version your playing. My players freaked out they enjoyed 4e so much, and thats the only test that counts.

 

[Spatula]

a) Welcome to EN world, unan!
b) Accusing people of trolling is heavily frowned upon here. You might want to edit your post and tone it down some.

 

[unan oranis]

a) Welcome to EN world!
b) If you go around accusing people of trolling, the mods will be having words with you. You might want to edit your post and tone it down some.

Thanks! Enworld rocks! Wish I had checked it out a lot sooner.

 

[Blacksmithking]

Out of all my concerns and hesitations for 4e, I would label the inclusion of only four (on average) at-will powers per class ... most suckie? Two more each would have been preferable to me. That way there would be much more variety.

That situation will probably change with the release of some splats. There's only some much room in the PHB, especially with each class having its own "spells." The only problems I have with 4e stem from its limited scope this point. For example, I don't like that there are only 2-3 cookie cutter builds for each class (the melee cleric or the laser cleric, to name one).

Anyway, my sword & board fighter is, at last, awesome in 4e. I've haven't been so excited to play a warrior class.

 

[SaffroN]

I read your whole post, I'm not going to discuss everything, just correct you on a few points.

The races: each race has one or two classes they can play without sucking...And the warlock, attacks... with Con? And the dwarf is one of the only +Con races?

Half-elf has a Con bonus as well.

Also. Yes, the races grant a +2 ability score modifier to two stats. If that is the sole reason you choose one class over the other... Lets just say there is much, much more to a race then a shoddy +1 to attacks and damage.

Paragon paths and epic destinies are good. Much better than prestige classes. Great job guys. But with each class you barely include enough at-will powers to create the two sample builds, what the hell? A few more would have been nice. Better at-wills to swap out at higher level, better advancement of existing at-wills (not just a bit more damage at 21), something.

I'm kinda on the same page here, but there is something to think about. What is the point of adding more at wills? you can only pick 2 (3 if your a human) at-wills. More choices would most likely be an overkill. Why have so many choices when you can only pick two? Not only that, but the bonuses they grant are borderline negligible.

I have played D&D with minis my whole life. I think people who play without them are silly. It's part of the game. However, it's an optional part of the game. No longer.

Its still is very much optional. No one is putting a gun to your head. Yes, Minis "use is written into the rules", however, so is all the Gods. You don't have to follow every little thing in the core books.

Almost forgot: Oh yeah, the freaking warforged have already been errata'ed? ON THE FIRST DAY! FIRST-GOD-DAMN-DAY? Nice. Put out a book without the right words in it to boost and keep DDI subscriptions. Nice.

As explained by unan oranis, not errata'ed, expanded. A very big difference