We're Going To Do Return to the Tomb of Horrors and One Player has Freaked Out!

[MacMathan]

I have run this adventure with 5 seperate groups.

by the end of the adventure half of the characteres had died once, half of those died twice.

This is the real point, this is a game, it is a game where death is not permanent, Third Edition even more so. True Ressurection, Wish and Miricle make this players concerns laughable.

snip..

The point being that more then half the characters will not accept a res and therefor death is not a light thing, it is permanent.

 

[White Fang]

Well here's my two coppers on this subject. Both being a DM and a player I like these kind of adventures that put can a party to the "TEST". That doesn't mean I am eager to kill off my party, or have my own character killed. It's just that the guys and gals I play with like the occasional mega challange, and RToTH is just that. That being said I could understand if someone doesn't want to play a character that they have put a lot of time into just so it can be killed. If the player feels strongly that they don't want to lose their character in a very deadly adventure that would be ok with me, I'd just have them role up a new one for the adventure. On another side not the RToTH can be put into a campaign fairly easily. The beginning of the adventure could put it just about anywhere the PC's are currently located. Well 'nuff said.

 

[Banshee16]

The point being that more then half the characters will not accept a res and therefor death is not a light thing, it is permanent.

I tend to agree here. In my campaign, the characters have access to resurrection type magic....well, reincarnate to start, but resurrection through hired spellcasters. But none of the players want to use it. Characters die, and they're thinking up new characters, rather than wanting their existing ones to come back.

This causes major problems with ongoing storylines, because sometimes, over the course of a campaign, there are no characters left who were part of the original "party" and remember the original motivations behind what the characters are doing.

I am not sure the player was over-reacting. Yes, RttTOH has a rep as a deathtrap. Possibly, they might survive. But the adventure isn't really designed that way. If the player has been running a character for so long, and wants to have him be unavailable, let him. He can roll up another character, or take over an NPC, who is a level lower than the rest of the party. Maybe his normal character is sick, or is called on by the head of his order to do something else that means he can't take part in the adventure.

That's the easiest solution. Saves face for both DM and player.

I think that the points made about a player going through a roleplaying intensive game for years, and then getting put through a meatgrinder are valid. If the player has been playing one way, and the character isn't tricked out, and optimized for dungeon crawling, his chances are pretty low. His character might not have the knowledge on how to survive some of the traps in the tomb etc. without the player using knowledge he shouldn't have. So, let the character decide if something seems to be beyond his ability and retreat gracefully. It doesn't do good for anyone in the group to have people fighting over whether or not to run the game.

Years ago, I had a group in Dragonlance, and picked up the Ravenloft box. Decided I wanted to try Ravenloft for a while. The players said they didn't want to try it, because they heard Ravenloft was deadly, and there was no way to succeed. I had them get sucked in anyways. After a session or two, one of the players had his character go insane, kill the other players' characters, then kill himself. End of campaign.

Is that situation fun for anyone?

Banshe

 

[enworldatemylogin]

Our choices at the moment in terms of things that need to be done in the world are:

4) - Investigate some undead occurences that have led us to an abandoned structure where a powerful but secluded wizard used to live that seems to be presently overrun by giants.

As you can see, the fourth option seems to be the easiest one at the moment. I suppose this is why we're trying to play in character and not go on out of campaign information.
I mean... is the place really that bad?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Guess what? That is the lead in for Return to the Tomb of Horrors.

Why would I do that? Spoil you? Here is my experience with this adventure.

Back in our hayday, when we could play often and get large groups together, our DM decided to give this a try. We agreed since only one of us had actually attempted the Tomb of Horrors previously.

Yes, you realize that in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors, you'll have to go into THE Tomb of Horrors? If I recall correctly, if you have the proper info, not all the way inside, but the way to get PAST the Tomb, into the next set of death traps and encounters completely contravenes rational thought.

Anyway, the DM was too burned out after the tower with the giants so we decided he'd run a character and I'd take over the DM reigns. This was after a long discussion which 2 conclusions were drawn from.

1. If you get attached to your characters, the only choice to make is to NOT do the adventure.

2. Having spoiler knowledge of any part of the adventure will NOT help you or the party survive it.

There are traps and encounters that will kill you, remove your soul from your body, turn your body to dust, imprison you, torture you, remove your soul from your body AND destroy the body. Know where these are might help you avoid some of them, but it wont change the fact that a failed saving throw is a failed saving throw.

 

[Angel of Adventure]

Ok, just found this thread and I haven't read thru it all, but it seems that my opinion is very different than most here. As such, I will done my flame retardant gear before I begin. (And, feel free to disagree.)

RttToH is very difficult, very challenging, and very dangerous. Our pty played thru it in Jester's game and, as he mentioned, we had a blast! Yes, several of us died and had to be brought back in various ways. Yes, there were times when we nearly pooped our pants, and I think one PC actually did this in-character. Yes, it totally has the chance of TPK and it came close to it a couple of times.

That being said, I have never played thru another purchased module that gave me such a sense of satisfaction for completing it. IF you can make it thru, I feel that you are an awesome gamer and worthy of many, many praises. IF you are even bold enough to even try (whether you make it thru or not), you have balls (or ovaries) of steel and deserve praise for that, too.

I, too, have a couple of PCs that I'm very fond of (and one of them died in RttToH very, very foolishly). However, the day that you are too afraid to loose them might be the day that you should stop gaming. Death is eventual, but glory is forever!!!

Herreman, not to spoil and you've probably already heard it, but be super careful, super paranoid, and precise teamwork will help you win the day, even if the dice occassionally don't go your way. Oh, and protect your cleric at all costs!!!! Per pty members that don't want to play, well, I've never played an adventure where the results rested soley in the hands of one PC.

 

[A'koss]

IMO, one of the benchmarks of a great game is one where the players develop strong emotional attachments to thier characters. To me that says their game probably a cut above the crowd. So when I hear other players say "Oooh, if you're too afraid maybe you should quit gaming altogether..." I can only shake my head. These are the kinds of games *I* would like to join. I find that players who have little attachment to their characters typically just have average games at best. Fun perhaps, but probably nothing to write home about.

Just my 2 bits.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I think its a bit whiny.

I'm a veteran gamer, with PCs older than Michael Jackson's last 2 dates put together.

I've been through candyass adventures and TPKs...

CHARACTER DEATH PART OF THE HOBBY!

just like the potential to lose money is a part of the hobby of gambling.

I have taken my PCs through ToEE (currently going through RttToE), White Plume, Tomb of Horrors and Hand of Vecna- sometimes my PC died, sometimes they got through. I hated losing PCs, but accepted it, and my personal PC Boot Hill is vast, including even 20th levelers.

Even homebrews have claimed their shares: one GM set up an encounter that REQUIRED the casting of a particular spell...that HIS PC had. No other PC in the group had that spell, and his PC wasn't on the adventure- TPK.

The other posters have had excellent solutions to the problem... "Play or don't, but I'm running this adventure." "Running away is always an option." "Clones."

However, as a caveat- if you find that the adventure really is a PC hoser, allow for "divine intervention."

 

[Virel]

I have played in ToH on two occassions and my PC survived both times. They were treasured characters and part of a the on going campaign. About 1/2 of the party died the first time. The second time a few years later, I don't think one PC died.

I've also DM'd ToH several times as part of my campaign. Normally, there are several PC's that are totally destoryed. I haven't had a TPK yet. I do tend to start the players off right with deadly homebrew and save or die situations at low levels. I mean if your rolling a save you've already done something you deserve to die for right? Two weeks ago, one of my homebrews which I hoped showed a ToH spirit, had several of the new players become suddenly convinced they were actually in ToH with 1st level characters. I think it was the lack of monsters, combined with puzzles and a few quality traps. When they learned they were not in ToH after the session, I had to promise them I would run ToH and they could see for themselves what hardcore AD&D is like.

I will run ToH with my new groups. It's a basic part of being initiated in becoming a hardcore 1st ed AD&D player. They like the deadly adventures I've thrown their way so far, so ToH, they will face. If someone wants to sit out that's fine. Of course the other players will laugh at that person.

Play smart and ToH is fun and your PC has a decent chance of living. Play stupid and Darwin will take care of the problem.

As fo R2tTOH, I have it and I will run it as part of my campaign. I have high expectations of players and their abilities. I trust most will use their long time characters. In fact several players very much want to run that characters that lived thru ToH, in R2tTOH, and we will as soon as it's the right time campaign wise. Several new players need to make a few more level etc.

I would be shocked if any of the experienced players "Barbie" with their long term characters. I think there might a one or two of the newest players that "Barbie" with their characers on ToH.

In any case, it will be fun and ToH will be good for the long term campaign as it always has been in the past.

If a player wants to sit instead of play, let them.

 

[HeavyG]

Once again, RttToH is not ToH. It's a real adventure.

I agree with that. While the original was filled with pointless and arbitrary "know instinctively what to do or die" traps, the return to version is a very very good adventure. Thinking things through actually help in the later version.

It even provides PC with info that turns the part in the Gygax version into a playable module.

I would love to play a 3rd edition of RttToH. Just not with a character I was attached to, that's all. As a one-shot, with a decent conversion, it would be a great time.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We're using RttToE as the core of our current campaign, and loving every minute of it. I'm playing a PC I enjoy, Pierre Chansons, a whip-wielding Ftr/Rgr/Div/Spellsword (think Indiana Jones).
Avg PC level is 7 at this point, and we started at level 1.

So far- no deaths.

Pierre takes risks: some pay off, some don't. He got captured while scouting and had the choice of surrendering or fighting- he surrendered and lived...to be rescued. The DM later revealed that, had he fought, he would have died, barring a slew of natural 20's on my part.

And, love him though I do, if Pierre bites the big one, I have other PC concepts ready to roll.