Weretouched Master:a bit overpowered or playable?

[Egres]

One of my players would get this PrC, in order to get the Tiger "affinity".

What do you think about it?
It's the 5th level feature, Alternate form, too much powerful or i'm missing something?

 

[Scion]

I was just looking at this guy the other day.

The first four levels are mostly fluff. Giving up likely a full BAB progression class (loss of 2 BAB over the course of 5 levels) and gain a few minor abilities. Likely also losing some avg hp and some skill points.

Shifting itself isnt incredibly strong to begin with, basically just an interesting, although typically weaker, version of the barbarians rage.

All in all, the only thing that makes it worth it is the level 5 ability, and mostly then only if you are a tiger or bear.

The bonus at the end is pretty large, given the appropriate choice, which I think by that time is pretty well deserved.

I havent gotten to see it in action so I dont know if the final stat modifiers are too over the top, but I doubt it.

The real problem I have with it is the lack of adequate description. Does it take one of the shifting uses per day? how long does is last? One can assume that it takes a use and lasts as long as a normal shifting, but it does not say so. Also, can one also shift while in this form? If not, why not? It says that this version works as polymorph instead.

The path I was looking to take was Barb 5/weretouched master 5 for something like the following.

HD 5d12+5d8 (avg 60.5)
BAB +8
Skills 8*(4+int) + 5*(2+int) = 42 + 13*int
Saves: F +4/+4=+8 R +1/+4=+5 W +1/+1=+2

Abilities: improved uncanny dodge (level 5), rage 2/day, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge (level 5), fast movement, illiteracy.
Weretouched 1, wild empathy, 2 bonus shifter feats, Weretouched 2, frightful shifting, alternate form.

vs
Barb 10
HD 10d12 (avg 70.5)
BAB +10
Skills: 13*(4+int) = 52 + 13*int
Saves: F +7 R +3 W+3

Abilities: DR 2/-, trap sense +3, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge (level 10), uncanny dodge (level 10), fast movement, illiteracy

Only one level away from greater rage though, along with an extra attack (+11/+6/+1), and able to be any race desired and possibly haveing a few extra feats open.

So basically, it looks like the weretouched can hit pretty hard a few times a day, and gets some intersting abilities, but a good portion of those are needed just to make up for other losses.

Just to go over the basic abilities of the weretouched master though.
Weretouched 1: +2 bonus to a stat while shifting and a natural weapon (or improvement to one already possessed while shifting). Typically the natural weapon damages are pretty low.

Wild empathy: Unless one is a ranger or druid (why would a druid enter this prc?) it doesnt do much. d20 + weretouched master level + cha bonus.. woo, not likely to help at level 10+

Bonus shifter feat x2: Unfortunately many of the shifter feats are pretty weak. But, having more means more shifting per day and longer shifts. DR 2/silver while shifting can be nice and sortof simulates the barbs DR, somewhat.

Weretouched 2: Out of all of these I think the tiger one is the only worthwhile one, but still, some may like the others The wolverine one however is just asking to get the weretouched killed.

Frightful shifting: If this ever makes a difference I will be surprised. Will save dc of 10+weretouched level +cha mod or be shaken? Shaken is very nice to have on your opponents, however, with such a low dc it is unlikely to matter against anyone that wasnt cannon fodder anyway.

Alternate form: this is the big one. It rocks out like crazy. Assuming that useing it takes a shifting use and only lasts as long as a normal shift however, along with being unable to stack shifting and it at the same time, cuts its power down dramatically. The only two that are really worthwhile are tiger and bear, although I could see a really weird bow wielding rat or the wolverine just to be able to shift for huge amounts of time.


I think that the class is fine in total though. Most of its abilities are pretty weak, except for the really strong one at the end. Compared with a straight classed guy it doesnt come out looking incredible nor horrible so that should be fine too

 

[rkanodia]

All in all, the only thing that makes it worth it is the level 5 ability, and mostly then only if you are a tiger or bear.

The bonus at the end is pretty large, given the appropriate choice, which I think by that time is pretty well deserved.

I more or less agree with your assessment. The problem is that shifting is good but not incredible, and the weretouched master pays a lot for the privilege of enhancing his shifting.

Frightful shifting: If this ever makes a difference I will be surprised. Will save dc of 10+weretouched level +cha mod or be shaken? Shaken is very nice to have on your opponents, however, with such a low dc it is unlikely to matter against anyone that wasnt cannon fodder anyway.

I dunno about that. At high levels, this might not be as significant, but at level 10 with 8 Cha and 5 levels of Weretouched Master, a level 9 opponent (the highest who can be affected) with low Will save and a +2 saving item still fails 40% of the time with a save of +5 vs DC 14. It's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination but as a free addition to shifting I think it's pretty nice. I would definitely change the save from class level to 1/2 character level, though, or you'll still have the DC 14 save at level 20 - where a level 19 opponent with a +5 saving item only fails 10% of the time.

Alternate form: this is the big one. It rocks out like crazy. Assuming that useing it takes a shifting use and only lasts as long as a normal shift however, along with being unable to stack shifting and it at the same time, cuts its power down dramatically. The only two that are really worthwhile are tiger and bear, although I could see a really weird bow wielding rat or the wolverine just to be able to shift for huge amounts of time.

A Tiger or Bear is going to be rather insane (Bear will have total +20 strength while shifting and raging, or possibly +24 depending on your interpretation of how the Alternate Form ability works) for those few rounds a day. Heck, with a two-handed weapon and a power attack for 8 points of attack bonus, he's getting a total of +2 attack (compensating for his BAB penalty), +31 damage (+15 from str bonus *1.5 +16 from Power Attack*2). He's also got a bite attack with a -3 penalty to attack (-5 + 10 from strength -8 from power attack) and dealing around 1d6 + 15 damage. Actually I'd just make a Trip attack with it and that nice +10 bonus (on top of my normal Str mod, of course). A confirmed critical with a greatsword has a pretty reasonable chance of killing your Barb 10 in one hit. Give him a greataxe instead, and he doesn't even have to pick up the d12.

Of course that's not a guarantee that the Weretouched Master will automatically kill any given opponent with any given attack. But if you include a Bear or Tiger Weretouched Master in your campaign, you'll have to consider the fact that one BBEG per day is going to get utterly destroyed if the WM makes it into melee range.

 

[Scion]

I more or less agree with your assessment. The problem is that shifting is good but not incredible, and the weretouched master pays a lot for the privilege of enhancing his shifting.

I am not sure if shifting really rates a 'good' note. If rage is good (which I personally think it is) then shifting is something well below that.

I dunno about that. At high levels, this might not be as significant, but at level 10 with 8 Cha and 5 levels of Weretouched Master, a level 9 opponent (the highest who can be affected) with low Will save and a +2 saving item still fails 40% of the time with a save of +5 vs DC 14. It's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination but as a free addition to shifting I think it's pretty nice. I would definitely change the save from class level to 1/2 character level, though, or you'll still have the DC 14 save at level 20 - where a level 19 opponent with a +5 saving item only fails 10% of the time.

Of course, the frightful shifting only applies when charging or attacking in shifted form. Along with that, pretty much any level 9 opponent will have a +3 or higher will save since a bad save gets bumped up every 3 levels

Along with many creatures simply being immune (ok, many might be too strong, at higher levels it is many, at level 10 it is probably around a third).

The shaken status itself gives creatures a -2 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks and skill checks. All around a nice little benefit, but with such a low dc I would expect most any real threat to be able to pass it a good portion of the time.

At least it is a nice ability but not overpowering. Against a bunch of peons you can expect the fight to go that much easier, against real threats it will tend to not work. I like it overall.

Limited amount of use per day (only works while shifted and attacking/charging) and grants a save, along with being fear based (I believe that shaken is always fear based, I dont have the book with me currently). Must watch out for those paladins and people with them

A Tiger or Bear is going to be rather insane (Bear will have total +20 strength while shifting and raging, or possibly +24 depending on your interpretation of how the Alternate Form ability works) for those few rounds a day. Heck, with a two-handed weapon and a power attack for 8 points of attack bonus, he's getting a total of +2 attack (compensating for his BAB penalty), +31 damage (+15 from str bonus *1.5 +16 from Power Attack*2). He's also got a bite attack with a -3 penalty to attack (-5 + 10 from strength -8 from power attack) and dealing around 1d6 + 15 damage. Actually I'd just make a Trip attack with it and that nice +10 bonus (on top of my normal Str mod, of course). A confirmed critical with a greatsword has a pretty reasonable chance of killing your Barb 10 in one hit. Give him a greataxe instead, and he doesn't even have to pick up the d12.

Either guy could kill the other with a confirmed crit at this level really, with the appropriate modifier.

Still, I think most everyone will agree that one is shifting either way, so cannot stack both shifting and shifting. Also, the guy is useing a rage and a shift at the same time, he wont be able to do this very often, and in order to be able to do it even a few times he'll have to put a bunch of feats into shifting feats, which are generally very lackluster.

If he puts no more than the base amount of feats into shifting then he gets to do this once per day (+16 from bear from, +4 from rageing, generally for around 11 rounds). Pretty nice, but then he is done for the day after 11 rounds (not completely, but at this point he is inferior to the straight barb in many ways).

Placing more feats into shifting means more shifting a day. But then, that means that they have spent even more feats to gain just about no benefit other than being able to get the massive bonus another time per day (1 more time for every two shifting feats).

Sounds like a very rough and tumble sort of guy. The sad part is that the one ability might be too strong (for the bear, the tiger is probably still ok) but the rest of the class is pretty much worthless. Without the 5th level ability the class is weak.

Of course that's not a guarantee that the Weretouched Master will automatically kill any given opponent with any given attack. But if you include a Bear or Tiger Weretouched Master in your campaign, you'll have to consider the fact that one BBEG per day is going to get utterly destroyed if the WM makes it into melee range.

Any campaign with only one fight per day and that being the BBEG is already so far off of the core recomendations that there are literally dozens of huge problems that will pop up.

With enough feats in shifting the weretouched master will be able to do his thing multiple times in a day. But then he is giving up a lot of other options to do so. The guy above, who is of course impressive, has power attack. Which means there goes one feat that didnt go towards shifting (which means that he has one less shift per day and one less round of duration for shifting, at least).

Now, the bears str bonus is definately impressive. It may even be over the top. The problem is, how much do you have to take away from the guy before they can get a big bonus? and just how big should that bonus be?

This class is only for shifters, they have to pay at least one feat towards shifting just to get in. After that, there are four pretty weak levels which dont do a whole lot (generally they boost shifting a little, which is then overridden when one wants to go for the big guns).


I am in my office right now though, anyone care to write up a 20th level character for each? one barb, one weretouched? We all know that different classes have different power peaks at different levels, and 10th is likely the very best level there is for the weretouched. (a few other levels would be nice too, but there are two main points to start with, one at the beginning and one at the end)

I would suggest sticking with tiger though, as that is what is under discussion here. The extra 4 points to str from the bear might just push him too far over the edge

If it works out to be too much even for the lion form then it will be easier at that point to see just how much it is going over by.

As a preliminary, and to fix all of the forms, perhaps having a certain amount of stat bonuses based on the number of shifter feats taken and it differing by the creature. Such as, for each shifter feat you have then your creature form gets benefits as listed, I'll do a basic rundown off the top of my head: since 3 are going to be had just by getting to this point the start will be +2 str, +2 dex, +2 con. Now, for every shifter feat beyond this they all go up by +1. At level 20 this would mean a max of +9 to each of those stats.

That is just a general idea though, lets see how the numbers work out for both of the comparisons

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of the problems that I've seen discussed with the weretouched master is the lack of balance between the different forms, and the best solution that I've seen was to allow the less powerful forms to retain their shifted shape for longer (giving them a better long term benefit).

e.g. bears and tigers get standard shift
boars and wolves? get 10mins/ level
rats and ? get 1hr/level.

 

[Scion]

might not want to give the wolverine 1 hour/level

 

[Gort]

Weretouched Master is the worst class in the world, because it is actually unbalanced WITHIN ITSELF.

Something tells me we'll see a lot more tigers and bears than anything else.

Anyway, the balance of the class all depends upon how prevalent polymorphing magic is. If everyone turns into a fire giant every fight, weretouched master will fit right in. If he's the only one who can do it, on the other hand, he'll be overpowered.

 

[Ahrimon]

I don't have the book with me right now, but I read it as the tiger and bear forms actually increase to large size, just like the original lycanthropes, when they changed. If you go through and adjust thier stats to be medium sized, they are still powerfull, but not nearly as over the top. On that note, the rat stats are probably based off of being small. I'll bet if you adjust it up to medium then it won't look so off base anymore either.

Ahrimon

 

[Plane Sailing]

might not want to give the wolverine 1 hour/level

I couldn't remember which way round wolves and the other one were - the discussion was a long time ago, shortly after Eberron came out. Basically two were overpowered and two were underpowered. It was the only principle on which the different types of weretouched master seemed to be "balancable" on

Cheers