Werewolf Druid building advice

[Jack Simth]

From a power perspective, as a Druid, you don't want the LA or RHD. Play a regular Druid, and use a Wolf form a lot. Play a shapeshift variant Druid and flavor the forms as a Wolfish. But from a power perspective, when playing a Full Caster, you don't want LA or RHD (unless they're free - if you're Gestalt, and the LA and RHD are opposite regular class levels, that can work very well).

If power isn't a priority, or if there's a campaign requirement for it, then the question becomes: How exactly do you want to play it? Primary Divine Caster is out due to the LA and RHD, so you're basically looking at playing a front-line fighter - who are also usually gimped due to LA (but RHD don't hurt them so much).

 

[Theroc]

OK, I've seen it now.

You do realize that these template classes work just like regular PC classes (and are a modification of the Savage Species monster levels, similar to the AU/AE racial levels) or PrCls, right?

Savage Progressions: Gaining a Template Midcampaign

IOW, at 1st level, you could be a Werewolf OR a Druid, but not a Werewolf Druid.

And, with that in mind, you could easily consider the Feral template to be a single level template class.

How could I be a Werewolf at first level, Danny? I need an HD, don't I? Or did I miss something in the articles. As I understood it, You had to take the first level of werewolf, which simply applies a Level Adjustment and bonuses, no HD. And without HD, my character is not alive.

And yeah, Jack, I realized it would would weaken me, but I don't think I understand what exactly I am doing, so I may need to either switch class (I was really hoping to play a lycanthrope) or drop the lycanthropy. The flavor of the idea is great, but I had been afraid the combination would end up too weak in practice, due to the LA.

I'll likely need to talk to my DM/group about changing things slightly...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How could I be a Werewolf at first level, Danny?

That was my question- the PC's initial level & eventual progression wasn't exactly clear. (And looking back at the Werewolf "class," you're right that it doesn't provide a HD, so ignore what I said about being a 1st level WW.)

Now that we're all on the same page...

All that Savage Progressions writers did was take extant templates and extrapolate them into "class" levels. Thus, with a little work (and using their previous work as a guideline), you could take any template you like and make it into a class...like I suggested with Feral.

And that's good news for you, especially if you think (further) outside the box on your PC's design. Depending on how you envision your PC, of course.

There are all kinds of nifty templates out there for animals. "Legendary," "Dire," "Celestial," "Infernal"...even "Multiheaded" animal templates exist, and each of them could add a bit of spice & bite to your PC's Lycan or animal form.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

From a power perspective, as a Druid, you don't want the LA or RHD. Play a regular Druid, and use a Wolf form a lot. Play a shapeshift variant Druid and flavor the forms as a Wolfish. But from a power perspective, when playing a Full Caster, you don't want LA or RHD (unless they're free - if you're Gestalt, and the LA and RHD are opposite regular class levels, that can work very well).

If power isn't a priority, or if there's a campaign requirement for it, then the question becomes: How exactly do you want to play it? Primary Divine Caster is out due to the LA and RHD, so you're basically looking at playing a front-line fighter - who are also usually gimped due to LA (but RHD don't hurt them so much).

I agree with this. Spellcasters don't tend to get really good until CL 5-6+, so with your ECL 4-5, you won't be much of a caster until level 10 or so, and that's assuming the whole party is werewolves and the DM is adjusting enemies (like their SR) accordingly. It's a shame the totem druid idea didn't work out, I really liked that idea.

So, unless the campaign requires werewolf, play a humanoid with wolf totem druid, shifter variant, etc...something to be werewolf-like, without losing caster levels.
If you do have to be a werewolf, consider the Illumian race from races of destiny. One of their power sigils (krau, I think) gives +1 CL, and +2 CL once you reach 2nd HD. The CL increase can't go beyond your character level and won't give you access to a new spell level or anything, but it helps when you're losing at least 4 CL to HD and LA. Practiced Spellcaster unfortunately only adds up to HD, so your +2 LA would not be covered by that feat. The illumian racial feature would cover those 2 LA, though. You could take both and have a full CL (but still 4 behind for your actual spells known / per day / highest spell level). But I never really liked spending a feat on practiced spellcaster for less than 3 or 4 missing caster levels of hit dice. YMMV.

 

[Theroc]

~shrug~ The idea I'd had for him was very much a "Survival of the Fittest" pack mentality.

I would definitely have gone with the totem variant, except it would have weakened the build even FURTHER had I gotten to that level.

For more info, my character thus far would be the ONLY werewolf. Everyone else is playing a standard human in the campaign... so I've no idea how the DM would treat that.

I could possibly go with Shifter instead of human, but I disliked the temporary duration of shifting as opposed to the 'at will for as long as you like' duration of a lycanthropic change. Also, if I did go with Shifter, if I wanted Shifter feats to increase the shift duration, I'd need to run each feat past the DM, which I understand, but it'd be easier if I could avoid it.

I'd rather try to avoid adding too many additional sources, as I'd rather not bombard the DM when he actually only has access to the Player's Handbook.

I do appreciate the help, and apologies if I seem less than helpful. I just like the idea of lycanthropy and the idea of a Druid seemed fitting with the wolfpack idea, but obviously mechanically it doesn't jive very well. And the other wolven things don't allow a partial form.

Danny, I would probably just go with a Feral Druid(if the feral could make him LOOK wolven, except I don't have access to the template, so I couldn't use it.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Minor addition: Spell Compendium spells Aspect of the Wolf and...I'm pretty sure there's a "Bite of the..." spell for werewolf. They have were tiger, were rat, and werebear, I know...

But yeah, that's another source out of core. It's nice ot not want to overwhelm the DM with toom any sources, but if you're starting at level 1 and need to thus use a savage progression just to make a werewolf work in the first place, I don't see why a few specfic spells or a racial stat block will contribute much more to the problem. It's not like he has to read and allow the entire book to allow specific pieces of it. Just show him Illumian, for example, and ask if it's ok. Granted, Illumian is kinda complex on its own. Maybe just show him the two sigils you'd want and lay out exactly what racial benefits you'd be getting with them (along with the other ones that come for any illumian). Ditto for wolf-y spells and wolf totem, and whatever else if you go the "I can't believe it's not werewolf!" route.

 

[Theroc]

Minor addition: Spell Compendium spells Aspect of the Wolf and...I'm pretty sure there's a "Bite of the..." spell for werewolf. They have were tiger, were rat, and werebear, I know...

But yeah, that's another source out of core. It's nice ot not want to overwhelm the DM with toom any sources, but if you're starting at level 1 and need to thus use a savage progression just to make a werewolf work in the first place, I don't see why a few specfic spells or a racial stat block will contribute much more to the problem. It's not like he has to read and allow the entire book to allow specific pieces of it. Just show him Illumian, for example, and ask if it's ok. Granted, Illumian is kinda complex on its own. Maybe just show him the two sigils you'd want and lay out exactly what racial benefits you'd be getting with them (along with the other ones that come for any illumian). Ditto for wolf-y spells and wolf totem, and whatever else if you go the "I can't believe it's not werewolf!" route.

I have Spell Compendium, but not Races of Destiny. If you're wondering what sources I myself can access, check my sblock. I can access the "anytime" ones. The sometimes are a no atm.

 

[Jack Simth]

I could possibly go with Shifter instead of human, but I disliked the temporary duration of shifting as opposed to the 'at will for as long as you like' duration of a lycanthropic change. Also, if I did go with Shifter, if I wanted Shifter feats to increase the shift duration, I'd need to run each feat past the DM, which I understand, but it'd be easier if I could avoid it.

Not quite what I meant - the Shapeshift Druid Alternate Class Feature in the PHB II, pages 39-41. At-will shifting, as a Swift action, gives you enhancement bonuses to stats, natural weapons, movement modes, and removes your equipment and casting while active... but it's at-will, and it's explicitly designed to be re-flavored.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I could possibly go with Shifter instead of human, but I disliked the temporary duration of shifting as opposed to the 'at will for as long as you like' duration of a lycanthropic change. Also, if I did go with Shifter, if I wanted Shifter feats to increase the shift duration, I'd need to run each feat past the DM, which I understand, but it'd be easier if I could avoid it

Don't discard the Shifter idea too quickly. Most of a Lycan's benefit comes in combat...which is precisely how long most of a Shifter's benefits last.

You might take a longshot and scan the Monster Manuals to see if there are any fuzzy races with minimal LA that might suit your purposes.

You could also take levels in one of the Psionic classes (probably PsyWar) and choose things like the "Claws of the Beast", "Bite of the Wolf," "Body Adjustment," "Psychofeedback" etc., and simply claiming that your PC has a new form of Lycanthropy.

I've looked at your list of available sources...some of the ones I wish you had access to simply aren't there.

There are all kinds of fuzzy races in sources like Savage Species (the Anthros, in particular), Oriental Adventures has the Hengeyokai, DCv1 has a doglike race of humanoids, Magic of Incarnum has the Totemist. The 3PP AU/AE has both a canid race (the hyena-like Sibbecai) and a very nice Totemic Barbarian (in some ways, better than the Unearthed Arcana version). All obviously absent from your list.

Another longshot build would be Druid/Full Arcane Caster of your choice/Geomancer, taking all of the "wolfy" Drift options. While not truly a Lycan, he could explain that the magic he uses is slowly bringing forth the spirit of his totem animal...or that of an ancestor who had been a Lycan.

Danny, I would probably just go with a Feral Druid(if the feral could make him LOOK wolven, except I don't have access to the template, so I couldn't use it.)

No biggie- this is brainstorming! We throw out all the options we can come up with, then sort for viability and fitness for the character concept.

 

[Theroc]

Shapeshift variant might work, though it doesn't sound like it's as useful as the typical wildshape(though able to be used more frequently).

As far as magic of Incarnum... if I had it, I WOULD be playing a Totemist. I've wanted to play one since I saw Wizard's Snippet on their webpage. Unfortunately, the only access I can get to it is some strange streaming thing on the internet which... doesn't strike me as entirely ethical/legal to use.

As for Shifters, the other difficulty with it is the limited times you can change. Aside from that, they seemed pretty cool. (though I hate losing int, that always hurts)

As for Psionics, some of them seem interesting, but I've never fully gotten into them... one I find most interesting is the one that doesn't actually USE powers... Mindblade or something like that. Soulknife?

Geomancer might work, if the DM approves it. I'll have to see if I can get ahold of him a bit more to discuss the character.