[WFRP] Hogshead Closes Doors

[Roland Delacroix]

John: Whats your point? That there is a difference between short-term and long-term market conditions? I'm sorry, i thought the ST effects of the OGL and D20 were obvious. Yes, the market is in a state of flux as it adapts to this new paradigm. No, this isn't anything new, especially right now. Multiple markets are dealing with a massive shift in how they work. Books in particular, further de-stabilizing the RPG industry. They are still working out the kinks.

No company will create barriers, i've never heard such a ludicrious proposition. The barriers EXIST, cost and profit, and others, they just haven't hit this changing market yet. (maybe i didn't entirely understand what you were trying to say though...)

We are already seeing the results of cutting costs by putting out a bad product. WotC, the number one seller of d20 material, took a major hit after the debacle of Sword and Fist. Web sights such as this one will merely add to the tearing away of the d20 chaff. Publishers can't expect to survive on selling crappy product to early-adopters. If a company expects to survive it establishes a >long term< plan. Short term plans, such as the 'crap pumping' you describe, are usefull for fixing ST problems (such as the need for money, recession, etc). In this particular method of generating ST revenue these companies are shooting themselves in the foot. I'm sure i'm not the only one to turn away from a company after seeing one bad product. Companies that have produced a very good product have guaranteed i will buy from them again. It's only a matter of time until an 'Amazon.com' rises from the other badly managed starter-uppers (to cite a company in a very similar situation a few years ago)

Chaotic patterns and timeframes are all luck. Luck is well-documented as part of the weeding out of new business

You scenario assumes something common to all markets up until, say, 3 years ago; Imperfect Information. As you illustrate the concept of consumers having imperfect information was critical to marketing strategy. The reality is that I.I. is shrinking as the internet solidifies as a shopping aid. I won't be tempted to buy product 'B' after reading 5 bad reviews here (or elsewhere). I'll buy product 'A' after reading 15 good reviews. To claim that imperfect information is anywhere near where it was 5 years ago is utter foolishness. The sucess of sites such as carsdirect.com, Amazon.com, Cnet.com, and subsequently the products they review well, has also caused a massive shift in how corps will produce goods in the future. The side effect is that it renders your example invalid. An interesting side note is that imperfect information still is a powefull market force for product that is bought primarily by adults and the elderly. People 'less connected'. RPG's sell primarily to teens, college kids, young adults before they settle in with kids. The kind of market that knows how to use internet resources when spending the little money they have.

Filesharing is almost the complete opposite of the imperfect information corps depend on. It's hard to sell when a week BEFORE release the mass public knows that your product sucks. Hows this effects the economic system is good and bad. Consumers with near-perfect information are virtually guaranteed a supreme deal, a quality product at a good price. Thats good. The flip side is that corps that put out a bad product are virtually guaranteed a massive loss. The instability this puts in the market is mucho bad. I suspect the correcting factor will be corps focusing alot more on exactly what consumers want BEFORE production instead of fishing, toss stuff out and clone what they bite on.

I'm way ramblin too, and its early, but this is really a fascinating time to be living as an economist. Of course i'm excited

 

[Bagpuss]

Re: Ok, im a business guy

As such I noticed a few claims Wallis seems to make. he begins by blaming d20 for soft re-orders, as if it was a bad thing leading to the ultimate destruction of the industry. One interpretatation, more business/economics orientated, could be that the flood of new product is merely giving buyers more choices. Gamer A is still buying X dollars in product a month, he's just not buying YOUR crap anymore when there is better stuff out there.

Hogshead never produced crap, I have a number of there products and anyone of them is considerably better edited and designed than most of the recent D20 stuff I've bought.

In the long run this will do to gaming exactlly what filesharing is doing to music. If you want sales your product better be GOOD.

Nope your product just better be NEW, good helps, but new means it will get onto the shelf. That's his point.

He makes the correct point that he would need to revise his business model to survive, but then tries to say that doing so would result in a lesser product. If thats the case he was right to leave, if he can't do it someone else will.

The revised business model he's not happy to follow is to pump out new products each month. If you have to maintain that sort of schedule to ensure stuff stays on the shelves, then you are going to lose quality in editing, playtesting, etc, to hit the deadlines each month.

His point is that prior to D20 you could spend time producing a product because you knew it would have a long shelf life as there wasn't such a high number of new RPG's released each month.

Nowdays, very few re-orders come because the retailer has to give up shelf space for the next NEW thing, sometimes regardless of its quality. Sure really bad stuff won't sell well, but if everything is selling in low numbers just because of the huge range of selection.

If the retainler orders say 4 of each new product and actually manages to sell them all, how does he which was a good one, worth reordering? Next month there are more new products so he orders 4 of them, no point in reordering anything.

 

[hellbender]

This is truly a bad day for the the role playing scene. Hogshead not only kept one of the best rpgs alive (Warhammer), but knocked out Nobilis, a truly amazing feat, one very, very few companies ever come close to. And just because James Wallis is outspoken, people have to bash him? If anything, the mudslingers are making the d20 crowd look like morons. Why does being outspoken and making a stand make you a villian? Have people become so conformist?

Never heard of Hogshead? Then why post a flip message to the thread? Fear them burning their own stock? Why? What difference does it make to you? As a player of WFRP, Nobilis and DnD, I find any major game(s) taken out of circulation as a rather big upset to the industry. And the Hogshead crew turned out top notch material, they will be missed, and I wish the best for them in new endeavors.

hellbender

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Re: Re: Ok, im a business guy

Hogshead never produced crap, I have a number of there products and anyone of them is considerably better edited and designed than most of the recent D20 stuff I've bought.



Nope your product just better be NEW, good helps, but new means it will get onto the shelf. That's his point.



The revised business model he's not happy to follow is to pump out new products each month. If you have to maintain that sort of schedule to ensure stuff stays on the shelves, then you are going to lose quality in editing, playtesting, etc, to hit the deadlines each month.

His point is that prior to D20 you could spend time producing a product because you knew it would have a long shelf life as there wasn't such a high number of new RPG's released each month.

Nowdays, very few re-orders come because the retailer has to give up shelf space for the next NEW thing, sometimes regardless of its quality. Sure really bad stuff won't sell well, but if everything is selling in low numbers just because of the huge range of selection.

If the retainler orders say 4 of each new product and actually manages to sell them all, how does he which was a good one, worth reordering? Next month there are more new products so he orders 4 of them, no point in reordering anything.

Hmm, I was adressing hypothetical crap that a generic d20 company puts out, I apologize since that wasn't clear.

I completely understand John's point. My (vague) point is, that's not new to any industry. Therefore the Amazon example. There is always a flood, and time and quality trim down the market to a reasonable level. he is describing a ST situation, I see that as irrelevent in the LT, mainly because i'm not in that industry right now. As an objective viewer I can also see that in the long run what evolves will be best for everyone. I wouldn't be happy entering a flooded market either because, as you point out, even a quality product can get lost in the tide. In case it isn't obvious, timing is rather important in business decisions. I think Hogshead made the right decision by getting out in a bad time, try again later.

Your shelf-space example merely points out that LGS's are on the way to destruction. Sites like Buy.com and Amazon still have shelf space costs, but at a much lower premium.

Heaven forbid the retailer does a little of his own research into what sells. He just has direct acess to the horses mouth, gamers in mass quantities. Old-school business tends to ignore that though, look at last months numbers instead of todays requests. That will change now from the top down or those retailers will go out of business. Others with better plans will replace them.

 

[Graf]

Very interesting thread. Definitely picking up Nobilis...
[I remain pleased that we don't do these kinds of discussions every day here at EnWorld too. edit: but once in a while is nice, just to see the variety]

Fanboys will be fanboys. I remember trying to get people to play Over the Edge (or vampire when it first came out). Lots of ridicule, for years afterward (about Over the Edge anyway).
Now? You can't get me to play anything but D&D. My brain has filled with work and job and its all I can do to manage to run a game (not that I don't love it but...). Its hard to do something really super-innovative and keep it going. For relaxation most people watch TV and don't re-read War and Peace (where War and Peace represents doing something challenging but with a high return for personal growth...)

The general trend from J. Wallis' interviews is that he likes games with simple rulesets (and apparently Ars Magica....?). I liked Amber too, but at the end of the day it (diceless roleplaying) comes down to your worldview vs. your player's worldview. I'm a good arguer so I rarely come out poorly but its not a terribly fun interaction. I'm fine with having rules for lots of different things.
I'm also fine with having games (like D&D) where someone's pure creative genius and social power don't translate directly into the game. I'm fine with letting people with weaker social (or English skills) make an occasional Diplomacy check to succeed socially where they wouldn't be able to on their own steam.

All of my players are prior roleplayers, but most of them are new to D&D....

 

[Aryoche]

Forget WarHamster! This also means that SLA Industries is ALSO without a publisher again!

GAH!

This is a sad day indeed. Just when SLA was starting to get new products, as well as the wonderful SLA:XS. Hopefully someone will get together with Nightfall Games and keep this baby running, since according to the press release, ownership was returned to them.

It's kind of interesting how SLA gets overlooked in all the talk of WFRP and Nobilis, when I find it to be far more unique in its setting and presentation... Maybe it's just me...or maybe I know the Truth(tm)... andyhow, lets hope SLA doesn't get lost in the shuffle again, like it did when Wotc had it locked away in their vaults.

 

[jasper]

The web site just gives seller puffing could someone describe the following and give detail examples.
Because he made sound like Baron Muchausen was a drinking boasting game where everybody jumped in when they wanted!
Baron Muchausen
Once Upon a Time
Nobilis

Well exxxxx cccccuuuuuusssse HB
I had heard of war hammer just did not have the money to get into it.
So I checked out the web site for more information. He is telling his loyal supports he bailing out of the market. He also is gripes but hey its his company.
But the stock remark was one that cause me to do a double take. I forget the comic who said but it was about the stupidest comment everheard. Ex “ … if it wasn’t for my horse. I would have not spent that year in college…” His stock comment was that.

Also any company NOW ,not back in second edition years, can’t produce product the gamers don’t want. Too many choices, too many qualities. So if the games he produce were so great how come his market share did not grow?


Bagpuss Not just new product. If new product was pushing out old product how come I my hobby shop and the book stores I see same modules from 2 years ago. Along with new. So the old product is being reorder because it is a good seller and the new product is a okay seller. Ex. Sunless, coin trilogy,

 

[Ebeneezer]

My favorite bit from the Wallis interview:

Fandom is a weird environment, populated by barely functional beings for whom gaming is their entire existence, and if a company takes over an existing game and doesn't publish stuff _exactly_ as the fans expect, you become their enemy for life.

 

[Eben]

originally posted by Ebeneezer:
My favorite bit from the Wallis interview:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fandom is a weird environment, populated by barely functional beings for whom gaming is their entire existence, and if a company takes over an existing game and doesn't publish stuff _exactly_ as the fans expect, you become their enemy for life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That struck me too. I would think that if that would bother you, you wouldn't take over a game with an existing fandom. Take the LotR movies for example. The people who made these were well aware that existing fans would watch there every move and critsize their every action. But they managed to get over this, in large part by explaining the fans what their vision was, why the medium differed etc. That and a profound knowledge of the work.

RPG's should be alike, I think. When working for an existing audience, you should try and explain your choices, tell them what you were aiming at and ignore the critics if they're a minority. (If they're a majority hower, you should do some introspection.)

The consumer awareness is much bigger than it used to be, especialy in this little hobby of ours. Communication with your audience and listening to feedback is paramount, I think.
These boards are a great example: game designers listen to us, explain things to us. They announce plans, have informative websites that host forums,...

 

[Turjan]

Although I'm not a writer, I think James Wallis is right with the following statement:

But the games industry doesn't value its writers. Many companies still refuse to give them cover-credit, so the fans regard the trademarks as more important than the authors, and the good ones can't demand more money. I don't think you'll see people burning out any more than they already have (though that's a fair list of names), but you will see more authors getting better offers from other fields that are going to pay them what they're worth. Ditto editors.

Although he stresses the payment aspect, it's not a good practice for the consumers, either. I can see the games company's interest behind this: By establishing a certain trademark they want to get a source of steady income. But often the quality of such lines varies widely depending on who actually wrote the specific issue. I know that I love the style of certain authors and despise that of others - but even EN world doesn't have the ability to list the products by author. And there's rarely a comment on style in the reviews . I think something has to be done about this!