D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Doug McCrae]

Nothing was great about Medieval Europe. It sucked. However because it was terrible, it makes a good place to adventure in.

There were pictures of knights fighting snails. They're cool.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Nothing was great about Medieval Europe. It sucked. However because it was terrible, it makes a good place to adventure in.

Well, no. Plenty was good about Medieval Europe. The idea that it just sucked is an invention of people like Voltaire who were convinced of the superiority of the stuff they liked. The reality is that a lot of the stuff we attribute to the middle ages in order to say that they sucked either wasn't widespread, or wasn't really a thing until later periods like the early modern period.

Bathing/being clean is my favorite example, because it doesn't require me to go hunt down medieval art to show that what we think of as Renaissance art started in the middle ages and wasn't centered in the places we think of as starting the Renaissance. Mideival Europeans bathed regularly. In the cold months they were more likely to clean themselves outside of a literal bath, but they still changed their underclothes daily, and cleaned their bodies with soap and water. But bathing was also somewhat social, and that didn't stop being so much a thing until after the Middle Ages.

Likewise, the Church didn't discourage philosophy and alchemy (science), but were the primary patrons of it, and they didn't look down on or discourage pagan or muslim sources, but rather imported and preserved them quite eagerly. These fields advanced during the middle ages. The common concept that they didn't is historical bunk.

At the same time, the Church did discourage beleif in witchcraft for most of the middle ages, as it was considered heretical to posit that anyone other than god could perform miracles.

As for art, well, check out the blog posts from Going Medieval , which is a blog from a Medieval Historian about how most of what folks think about the middle ages is just flat out incorrect. The one I linked there is about the Renaissance, with analogues to Hey Ya by Outcast. It's a fun blog. There is swearing and fairly blunt discussions of sex, so, NSFW I guess.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Scroll up to post 541.

Thanks. I'll leave my clarifying questions for later, when I have time to start a meta thread.

Not sure what you're saying. I have posted a few times why I think psuedo-medieval Europe costume dressing works for a lot of people. Other people have also piped in.

Something I haven't mentioned - I'd love an Arabian Nights style campaign, an update to Oriental Adventures, a weird west, modern or sci-fantasy settings. Which is why I asked about what other settings others would be interested in several pages ago.

See the most recent moderation post.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

There were pictures of knights fighting snails. They're cool.

View attachment 121638

Being attacked by Giant Snails seems like an awful thing. But it does sound cool for adventure roleplay.

 

[MGibster]

At first, sure. But it’s not like there isn’t a long real world history of certain religions and faiths being dismissed as “evil” or “violent”. Someone who has heard all their life that their faith preaches intolerance and hate might be understandably upset to see people killing cultists on sight.

Perhaps D&D is not a good fit for such an individual. Because D&D has been and continues to be a very violent game that rarely involves waxing philosophical in regards to killing.

And the you have to ask yourself: how many cultists of Orcus follow him because what what they were taught? Because they were born into the cult. Or because the cult found them while they were hurting and in an emotionally vulnerable state. Or because they were indoctrinated/ brainwashed.

No, I really don't have to ask myself those questions. I might ask that about the leaders of the cult but I don't really care about what's motivating the mooks.

There are lots of wacko cults in the real world, and when the police raid them they seldom kill everyone...

I'm not too worried about the real world when it comes to running Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well, no. Plenty was good about Medieval Europe. The idea that it just sucked is an invention of people like Voltaire who were convinced of the superiority of the stuff they liked. The reality is that a lot of the stuff we attribute to the middle ages in order to say that they sucked either wasn't widespread, or wasn't really a thing until later periods like the early modern period.

Bathing/being clean is my favorite example, because it doesn't require me to go hunt down medieval art to show that what we think of as Renaissance art started in the middle ages and wasn't centered in the places we think of as starting the Renaissance. Mideival Europeans bathed regularly. In the cold months they were more likely to clean themselves outside of a literal bath, but they still changed their underclothes daily, and cleaned their bodies with soap and water. But bathing was also somewhat social, and that didn't stop being so much a thing until after the Middle Ages.

Likewise, the Church didn't discourage philosophy and alchemy (science), but were the primary patrons of it, and they didn't look down on or discourage pagan or muslim sources, but rather imported and preserved them quite eagerly. These fields advanced during the middle ages. The common concept that they didn't is historical bunk.

At the same time, the Church did discourage beleif in witchcraft for most of the middle ages, as it was considered heretical to posit that anyone other than god could perform miracles.

As for art, well, check out the blog posts from Going Medieval , which is a blog from a Medieval Historian about how most of what folks think about the middle ages is just flat out incorrect. The one I linked there is about the Renaissance, with analogues to Hey Ya by Outcast. It's a fun blog. There is swearing and fairly blunt discussions of sex, so, NSFW I guess.

That's not the kind of stuff I was thinking about. I was thinking more of the constant wars, raiding, the many flaws of the feudal system.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's not the kind of stuff I was thinking about. I was thinking more of the constant wars, raiding, the many flaws of the feudal system.

So, it sucked in much the same way as every period of history before the last 80 years or so sucked, and some regions of the world still suck?

I mean, sure, but that isn't particularly helpful to a discussion.

But also, even some of those things are exhagerated in history class by teachers who took Voltaire at his word instead of questioning his conclusions and finding that he was a wildly biased smarmy hack.

I'd rather live then, than in the height of the roman empire.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

So, it sucked in much the same way as every period of history before the last 80 years or so sucked, and some regions of the world still suck?

I mean, sure, but that isn't particularly helpful to a discussion.

But also, even some of those things are exhagerated in history class by teachers who took Voltaire at his word instead of questioning his conclusions and finding that he was a wildly biased smarmy hack.

I'd rather live then, than in the height of the roman empire.

True. The primary difference is that the land was less tamed then.
But still looking back on history, things like the first crusade were a huge mess that make the era out to be awful.

 

[Ace]

Being attacked by Giant Snails seems like an awful thing. But it does sound cool for adventure roleplay.

I lived in Oregon for a time. Giant snail attacks and giant slug attacks were scary. We had to go back to swords since bullets just didn't get the job done. Worse of all was Moulluscus Slimus Stupidus , we called it the State bird.

Kind of understood how Conan felt.

OK seriously, the Middle Ages weren't the dung ages and there were plenty of opportunities for adventure. The mystic middle ages has been the subject of many RPG's for good reason. Its a great setting

My favorite is the free mythopoetic RPG Danse Macabre

That aside these days there are plenty of pre gunpowder alternatives if you want low tech but are tired of Medieval Europe as well. RPG's and a little research let you try and get into other people's frame of being a bit which I think is great and something the hobby can encourage

 

[The Green Hermit]

I lived in Oregon for a time. Giant snail attacks and giant slug attacks were scary. We had to go back to swords since bullets just didn't get the job done. Worse of all was Moulluscus Slimus Stupidus , we called it the State bird.

Kind of understood how Conan felt.

OK seriously, the Middle Ages weren't the dung ages and there were plenty of opportunities for adventure. The mystic middle ages has been the subject of many RPG's for good reason. Its a great setting

My favorite is the free mythopoetic RPG Danse Macabre

That aside these days there are plenty of pre gunpowder alternatives if you want low tech but are tired of Medieval Europe as well. RPG's and a little research let you try and get into other people's frame of being a bit which I think is great and something the hobby can encourage

It's the banana slug in Washington.