What’s the most complex RPG out there?

[Morrus]

What’s the most complex RPG out there?

I haven’t played Hero System or Rolemaster, but both are known as very high crunch. GURPS has a vast library of material. Pathfinder is pretty complex but from what I hear those others are higher up that scale. What else is there that’s known as super complex?

 

[Ratskinner]

I agree with the systems you mention. Hackmaster, as I understand it, is pretty complicated. I had a game called Nephilim, and that seemed pretty complicated to me, but I think it was a derivative of the BRP system or something.

I tend to lean towards simpler systems, though.

 

[Nagol]

What type of complexity are you concerned with? Character creation, combat, general task resolution, magic, or something else?

 

[ccs]

Hackmaster, as I understand it, is pretty complicated.

Isn't Hackmasters complexity part of the joke though? SI've never played it, but since they're parodying 1eD&D (or they were) I'll bet you could just ignore a good chunk of it & still have a playable game.

I'll go with Champions/Hero.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

HERO is deceptively complex. Lots of ways to model things are provided, with only marginal guidance. Lots of people reverse engineer concepts from published NPCs, especially when they’re starting out.*

But once you actually start to play, you might never touch the game book in a given session, since 99% of what you need will be in front o you on your character sheet(s).

I’m a Mac guy, and I point this out to all my PC-lovin’ gamer buddies, but they don’t hear me.





* some, of course, have math errors.

 

[Nagol]

For rules complexity, I'd say Phoenix Command for its firearm rules and combat, Aftermath for a lot of things including designing custom weapons, Other Suns for ship and equipment design, Chivalry and Sorcery for the variety (and general unplayability going by RAW) of magic systems, Fantasy Wargaming for complexity in adjudicating magical attempts.

 

[Kobold Boots]

HERO System
Dangerous Journeys: Mythus (out of print)

The first is rather elegant. The second is maddening. Both are cool to read through

Be well
KB

 

[aramis erak]

I agree with the systems you mention. Hackmaster, as I understand it, is pretty complicated. I had a game called Nephilim, and that seemed pretty complicated to me, but I think it was a derivative of the BRP system or something.

I tend to lean towards simpler systems, though.

Hackmaster 3rd and Web of Stars dust Hero, GURPS, and Rolemaster on complexity. Rolemaster front loads, as does Hero; once characters are generated (and in RM's case, the weapons charts copied), it's very simple in play. SpaceMaster is slightly more complicated, because of adding ship rules. Alternity is about equally complex, as is AD&D 1E with all the expansions.

GURPS complexity is mostly in character generation, but also in rules selection for the various optional graft ins.

Space Opera is more complex than GURPS, Hero, or RM, because many of the some 150 skills have unique formulae and modifiers. Run "from the book" it's not horrible, but you NEED the book to run it as written.

Hero, GURPS, Rolemaster are all simple cores with a zillion options. Hackmaster 4 is actually a straightforward core with many options. Same for Burning Wheel and Burning Empires.

Phoenix Command (and its related games) is heavily formulaic, but the tables make it playable with a 4-function calculator. Cumbersome, but playable. The Aliens Adventure Game is the "light" version, and I'd put it on par with Hero, GURPS, and Rolemaster.

Web is not a simple core. It's heavily formulaic. I have had issues even following the character gen. The expansions are terse and formula-filled. I've only got the Web of Stars. Across the board, it's more complex than Hero, GURPS, and Rolemaster.

Hackmaster 3rd is also not a simple core. It's intentionally cumbersome.

FATAL is insanely complex, but that complexity is in places that sane players won't generally use. The core itself is not overly complex. The rules for effects of rape are complex and brutal. It's a disgusting piece of work, glorifying sexual violence....

 

[J.M]

Couple of thoughts:
From a business perspective you could make a case for introducing complexity on the player's side because it gives an incentive for the players to buy book(s). But it's a trade off because complexity is a turn-off for people who are more into roleplaying than number-crunching. It does seem to me that the complex games that are most successful (GURPS, HERO, Pathfinder) tend to front-load complexity in character generation rather than the play itself.

 

[Jhaelen]

For me it's a toss-up between Rolemaster and Harnmaster. Notice how both have 'master' in their name? I think it's meant as a clue to potential buyers: "If you want to play this, you better master them rules first!"