What 5e got wrong

[Sacrosanct]

whelp, the "look at this evidence to support the validity of my opinion" phase of the thread has started.

abandon ship!

To be fair, it wasn't an opinion. He claimed the best he had ever heard from PF fans was that is was "not really a bad game". That's not an opinion, but something that can be fact checked. I know for a fact that PF fans have said better things about 5e than that. Luckily for me, I didn't need to go look for it because a PF fan replied right away.

What is an opinion is that Tony apparently gets to decide who really is a PF fan and who's not, judging by his comment.

 

[Tony Vargas]

To be fair, it wasn't an opinion. He claimed the best he had ever heard from PF fans was that is was "not really a bad game". That's not an opinion, but something that can be fact checked. I know for a fact that PF fans have said better things about 5e than that.

Not to me, they haven't.

I didn't need to go look for it because a PF fan replied right away.

I was relating my personal experience. That's what I've heard in talking 5e with PF fans. Freaking out and calling me a liar won't change the experience.

Heck, make any remotely blanket-sounding claim about 'person in category X, never saying thing Y' around here and, between the sheer number of folks on-line and shield of anonymity, it's inevitable - someone will immediately leap up and say "I'm an X and I say Y!" ;P

 

[Shasarak]

To be fair, it wasn't an opinion. He claimed the best he had ever heard from PF fans was that is was "not really a bad game". That's not an opinion, but something that can be fact checked. I know for a fact that PF fans have said better things about 5e than that. Luckily for me, I didn't need to go look for it because a PF fan replied right away.

What is an opinion is that Tony apparently gets to decide who really is a PF fan and who's not, judging by his comment.

Personally I would disregard online opinion as not being an accurately representative sample.

Or at least that is what I have been told.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[ChrisCarlson]

My offer still stands, for anyone who wants to see for themselves, come out to our big convention coming up in a few weeks*. Tony included. Then he can have these supposed "personal experiences" expanded beyond his insular group telling only what he wants to hear.

(*Presidents Day Weekend in Los Angeles. www.strategicon.net. Come one come all... Almost all...)

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not to me, they haven't.

This is what you said:

The highest praise I've heard from 3.5/PF fans for 5e is "nothing really bad about it."

Seeing as how you're a very prolific poster who has been very active in 5e threads, I know this is not accurate. I know for a fact people who are fans of 3.5/PF have made posts more positive about 5e than "nothing really bad about it." in the past, and in threads you've participated in. I'm sure you just don't remember it, because like I said, you focus only on those posts that confirm your bias. I could spend the time to go look them up, but I don't have to because one such fan just posted right after your claim and said they really like it.

Your response? "Well, he's not a real PF fan." Seriously? And now you double down by shifting the goalposts and claim "Well, they never made that comment directly to me." Which I'll note is very much different than "I hadn't heard." And I'm not freaking out. Unless you consider it to be freaking out to go by the words you actually said.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, Sacrosanct, I'm talking about what I've heard from actual people, not internet noise.
I thought I made that abundantly clear.

 

[abirdcall]

Your response? "Well, he's not a real PF fan." Seriously? And now you double down by shifting the goalposts and claim "Well, they never made that comment directly to me." Which I'll note is very much different than "I hadn't heard." And I'm not freaking out. Unless you consider it to be freaking out to go by the words you actually said.

It is a No True Scotsman, don't worry about it.

Anyone who likes 5e a lot will be deemed to not like 3.x/PF enough to count.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Then maybe you need to go to convention or game store or something. I'm betting gamer demographics are pretty much the same everywhere. I.e., the experience I've seen in Oregon and Washington game stores and conventions that have a big 5e presence (many of those players are PF fans who are enjoying 5e) is pretty much the same everywhere. I don't think we're all that special in the PNW. Chris's comments seem to imply that the same result is in California. I don't understand why there's this big resistance to the concept that people can be fans of more than one edition, both PF AND 5e (and others).

Heck, I could say, "I haven't heard anything from D&D players other than 4e is a horrible game." by your logic. I mean, I don't go out and talk to 4e fans and they don't talk to me, and the people I have talked to are people usually in the same circle I am who don't like it. I sincerely hope you can see how me making that statement would be a pretty silly thing to say. And pretty deliberately obtuse to boot.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then maybe you need to go to convention or game store or something.

Two conventions a year. Encounters every Wed since the 2nd season.

Heck, I could say, "I haven't heard anything from D&D players other than 4e is a horrible game."

You can say whatever you want, really. I wouldn't be surprised if you had said something very like that, back in 2008 or so, you might even have carefully avoided talking to anyone who had played 4e, just be sure it'd be true. Or not, no one can check up on you.

I mean, I don't go out and talk to 4e fans and they don't talk to me, and the people I have talked to are people usually in the same circle I am who don't like it.

Yeah, I still play 3.5 now and then (ironically, perhaps, in preference to 5e, while I happily run 5e, and wouldn't run 3.5 again on a bet), there's PF games at my FLGS, I have friends who can't stop telling me how awesome it is (and it certainly has a few good points), I actually do get to talk with a variety of gamers IRL.

It's not even a dig at 5e, exactly - that 5e managed not to set off 3.5/PF hold-outs the way 4e did is still not a trivial accomplishment. It's just a recognition that a lot of people don't acknowledge it as bestestedevar the way some on-line enthusiasts do. Each edition still has it's fans who find it better than 5e. Reviews often say "best editions since _____" which is a nice way of saying 'second-best,' when you think about it. But, it's good /enough/ to bring a lot of those folks together, while pushing the whole 'bestest' button is only going to antagonize them.

Conversations like these make me realize how easily it could have gone sideways, too. I mean, it wouldn't have taken a lot more 'tude than we've see in some of the threads here to hit a tipping point and ignite another edition war. I'd hope that, a year and a half in, though, we're past worrying about that sort of thing...