D&D 5E What a DM has to do in 5E

dd.stevenson

Super KY
You could just tell me.

I have never run ToH. I have run a somewhat comparable adventure of my own design, in which the PCs - under no particularly serious time pressure (they had weeks, at least) - were exploring an abandoned castle to learn secrets of an archlich who had once lived there. The castle was protected by extremely powerful magical wards, and contained dark secrets that the PCs were trying to recover.

The game was set in the World of Greyhawk: the PCs lived in the Imperial Palace in Rauxes (the Great Kingdom), and the castle was many hundreds of miles away in the Howling Hills (north of Iuz). So each day would begin with a teleportation by the PCs to get to the castle. Then they would have to break the wards so they could fly in over the walls. Then they would explore whatever bit of it they could until they were running low on spells. Then they would fly back outside and teleport home.

Each PC was a caster - either full magic-user or warrior/mage - and so this sort of nova-ing didn't create any particular intraparty imbalances. The actual exploration was sometimes interesting but often a bit tedious (much as I imagine ToH might be), and I probably wouldn't run a scenario like that again. But I don't understand why it was, per se, bad GMing.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this game, if you're opent to sharing. How did you handle exploration? What system were you running? Was there any combat, or was this straight up exploration the whole way? Were there any inhabitants of the castle able and willing to push back against the PCs? Did the players find it tedious, and if so, did they complain or ask to move to a different scenario?
 

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Lokiare

Banned
Banned
Players got the five minute workday fever? Here's how to cure 'em. When the gaming session starts, break out a stopwatch. They now have five minutes to get everything done before they're required to rest. Done enough times, that'll make them heartily sick of the 5MWD, and probably of you as well, but such are life's drawbacks.

Alternatively, you could accept it as their preferred playstyle and just have the monsters and NPCs work around the party being asleep so much. This doesn't have to involve constantly trying to 'beat' them or giving them nicknames like Rip, Van and Winkle, but have the party's reputation follow them around ("Please rescue my daughter who got dragged into the snow cave labyrinth - this side of the summer solstice would be nice.") and ensure NPCs don't wait for them if it isn't required.

It's also important to ensure, as a DM, you're not forcing them into the habit. If your average encounter requires Patton-level strategy plus enough luck to drain a dozen leprechauns in order to avoid a TPK, most parties will balk at having to complete five or six of these before sundown.

Yes, yes, yes... we've all seen hundreds of posts, blogs, and articles on how to deal with the 5 minute work day. That's not what this thread is about. Its about the various things a 5E DM will have to do and comparing and contrasting that with what they had to do in other editions to see if 5E is actually going to be easier to DM in the long run or if its just going to turn into another 3E.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
You could just tell me.

Apparently I can't! ...Sorry, Pemerton, I'm just /tired/. It's not your fault. It's all these grumblecake threads. It's "D&D5 Can't Be Good Because It's Not D&D4, Part II: Electric Weren'twedoingthisexactsamethinglastyear-aloo."

The actual exploration was sometimes interesting but often a bit tedious (much as I imagine ToH might be), and I probably wouldn't run a scenario like that again. But I don't understand why it was, per se, bad GMing.

Is it possible that this was a very specific set of circumstances, to which my broad assessment does not apply? Particularly as you yourself acknowledge that the same set of circumstances is unlikely to come up again in any campaign you run?

If a dungeon is /designed/ for every encounter to be nova'd, and designed in such a way that there are no consequences for setting up to nova, then I would say that that is an example of /good/ dungeon mastery, but good dungeon mastery under a very particular set of special circumstances -- which are, as you say, interesting yet tedious.

I don't think the example applies to 90-95% of dungeons, particularly when new dungeon masters are concerned, which is really the only time we should be worried about the dungeon mastery guidelines in a new edition of D&D. As you have noted with your example, experienced dungeon masters find ways to buck the system and keep adventures fresh, even when those methods seem, on the surface, to break what I would consider to be cardinal rules of dungeon mastery. If you can handle it, you can do it. That's what makes D&D great. A human mind behind the screen.

And it also further speaks to why I don't feel like this issue is something dungeon masters "have to deal with." It's a /privilege/ to deal with these challenges, because of the opportunities for creativity they present the dungeon master. I know what you're probably going to say -- that you don't need to be restricted to be creative -- and you're not wrong, but as the saying goes, necessity /is/ the mother of invention. For my part, I like that D&D is capable of challenging the dungeon master just as it challenges the players.

I'm almost standing up, applauding.
Can't agree more.

Thanks, man. Nice to know I hit on something.
 

The potential for this sort of behavior has existed in every version of D&D, and it has been particularly obvious in digital versions. It's how I played the old SSI gold box D&D video games. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Interrupted? Restore save game. But if there had been a dungeon master at the "table," so to speak, that would have/should have been /impossible/, because that is literally the very /definition/ of dungeon mastery. You have a dungeon. You are its master. Act like it.

Gold Box games for the win! I still remember those games with such fond nostalgia. I can even play them for a little bit every few years before it wears off. That's quality.

I remember them a bit differently however. In my experience you always wanted to rest after every encounter you could, but you quite frequently weren't able to. From the beginning of Pool of Radiance, when you went into the slums you had to be careful, because until you cleared out a humanoid race's lair, there was a good chance you would get ambushed by them on your way out. But if you turned around and ran back to the inn after every battle you'd never get far enough to clear anything out, and you'd be risking those encounters every time you went in. By Pools of Darkness (which I've never finished) you still had dungeon ambushes happening all the time--and you were just as scared of them. You looked for every opportunity to rest, but when you actually were able to rest after a single encounter you counted it as a rare reprieve, because you'd usually not have that luxury.

Granted, I avoided reloading between encounters as much as possible (though I always reloaded on PC death/stoning/energy drain--I'm not hard core enough to accept the permanent loss that created). Even with my occasional reloading, I still got the feel that novaing was an extraordinarily bad idea in the games unless you really had to.

Since those games were some of my foundational D&D experiences, that philosophy has stuck with me for my entire D&Ding experience. I'm the caster (when I am) that hates to have to blow too many resources on any fight (I even try to be conservative in boss fights) because I'm afraid the party will get ambushed on the way out of the dungeon--despite the fact that my DM never runs it that way. I wish he did. I just can't enjoy D&D as a story. Personal preference. Almost every other RPG I play I like to play as a story. Something about D&D makes it better for me as a world exploration with adventuring opportunities available. I think players who started D&D with a different experience are probably going to be coming at it from an entirely different angle. I've had times when the rest of the party was expecting my caster to go full force (and they tend to do that with their own). It's very probable that that was their introduction to the game, and it was 3e, where I think the situation was the strongest.

Interestingly in those computer games because you didn't have options for scry & die and other tricks, caster dominance wasn't really a problem. You wanted as many casters as you could effectively use--which meant cheesy dual-classing in the later games--but you would get wiped out with a party of all casters. Their novaing ability was balanced with the fact that the 5MWD was rarely an option, and they were squishy and it mattered.

I'm hoping to recapture that feel with 5e, even with the classes being less split between daily spell-casters vs. simple fighters.

The game was set in the World of Greyhawk: the PCs lived in the Imperial Palace in Rauxes (the Great Kingdom), and the castle was many hundreds of miles away in the Howling Hills (north of Iuz). So each day would begin with a teleportation by the PCs to get to the castle. Then they would have to break the wards so they could fly in over the walls. Then they would explore whatever bit of it they could until they were running low on spells. Then they would fly back outside and teleport home.

Each PC was a caster - either full magic-user or warrior/mage - and so this sort of nova-ing didn't create any particular intraparty imbalances. The actual exploration was sometimes interesting but often a bit tedious (much as I imagine ToH might be), and I probably wouldn't run a scenario like that again. But I don't understand why it was, per se, bad GMing.

So in my planar campaign, I had a wonderful idea for an adventure. There was a world that was essentially a giant swamp, loaded with dinosaurs, giant beasts, and the occasional dragons and savage humanoids. The plan was for the party to trek through the endless wilderness looking for a reclusive sage with information they needed. Pure hack 'n slash survival marathon for that part of the adventure.

Unfortunately they were about 14th level (I started the campaign at a fairly high-level, and it was the first 3e campaign I had DMed). Rather than having to rest each night in the dangerous swamp with the constant threat of (randomly rolled) encounters, after having traveled through the wilds all day with the constant threat of random encounters (which was part of the point the experience was trying to give them--for me as a player I would love such a survival trek), the party's wizard simply spent an hour studying the immediate area at the end of the day, used plane shift + teleport to take the party back to one of the other party member's nice cottage near the Elysium gate-town in the Outlands, where they spent the night in warm beds. The next morning, plane shift in to the plane (showing up at a random destination), cast a teleport spell to travel right back to the location carefully studied the night before, and then repeated. The mage wasn't a 14th level caster, but he had the planeshifter prestige class (Manual of the Planes), and may have had their amulet of the planes by that point. So it costs them a few 5th level spell slots per day to totally avoid the entire point of the experience.

Of course, I let them do it. I hate punishing creative solutions.

I'm hoping 5e will help me avoid such scenarios. So far so good.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'd be interested in hearing more about this game, if you're opent to sharing. How did you handle exploration? What system were you running? Was there any combat, or was this straight up exploration the whole way? Were there any inhabitants of the castle able and willing to push back against the PCs? Did the players find it tedious, and if so, did they complain or ask to move to a different scenario?
I'll say a bit - it was nearly 20 years ago, so my memory's not perfect!

The system was Rolemaster, I would guess around 17th level (which in overall tone of play is probably comparable to 12th to 14th level AD&D). Exploration mechanics were the RM skill system, which is Perception checks mixed with freeform (I would say very similar to 3E; not the formal turn structure of classic D&D), and as GM I had the classic map + key.

There was a little bit of combat: there were fire demons (analogous to the classic Type VI) trapped in circles, which had to be dealt with. Also, at one point there was a teleport mishap (or some other reason for ending up in an unknown part of the Howling Hills) and two of them ended up having to deal with a horde of Wolf Nomads. I think there might have been a couple of other magical guardians, but I can't remember.

Dealing with the wards and traps occupied a fair bit of playtime - lots of opposed checks to break through magical wards, Perception and similar checks to avoid traps, etc.

The players found it a bit tedious, but there was an underlying dynamic - to do with learning about the archlich and his plots, and the day-to-day dynamic of the Imperial Palace around that - plus quite a bit of other stuff going on to do with the PCs. One in particular was gradually undergoing a breakdown due to addiction to a spell-restoring drug, plus associated moral collapse due to having betrayed his home town (Rel Astra) in favour of the emperor in Rauxes.

I think there was still stuff left to explore when they stopped visiting the castle, but they had got the information they needed, I think.

The experience did put me of running exploration scenarios for a long time. The last one I ran was as a deliberate experiment - I posted about it here.
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
The system was Rolemaster, I would guess around 17th level (which in overall tone of play is probably comparable to 12th to 14th level AD&D). Exploration mechanics were the RM skill system, which is Perception checks mixed with freeform (I would say very similar to 3E; not the formal turn structure of classic D&D), and as GM I had the classic map + key.
Thanks for the info. What you described does sound similar to my own experiences running 3.x exploration.

The experience did put me of running exploration scenarios for a long time. The experience did put me of running exploration scenarios for a long time. The last one I ran was as a deliberate experiment - I posted about it here.
That was a good post--I'd missed seeing it before.
 

dmgorgon

Explorer
So I remember when I use to DM 3.5E, I had to counter all kinds of shenanigans. I had to counter players trying to:


  • Take advantage of the 5 minute work day (blowing all their limited use features and then resting to restore them about 5 minutes into the work day).
  • Use overpowered spells (Scry and Die tactics, etc...etc...)
  • Abuse Limited Wish and Wish spells.
  • Spells and Magic items that instantly destroyed things.
  • Etc...etc...

I know off the top of my head the DM will have to deal with the 5 minute work day, save or die spells, short rests (fighters now get stuff too), several very powerful spells like wish.

So what kinds of things will the DM have to deal with in 5E?


For my playstyle the 5MWD is not an issue. The use of powerful open ended spells contribute to fun of the game. For my game, such spells act as cues for improvisational play and help focus the game towards a product of the imagination and not a product of the mechanics.

IMO, the DM won't have to worry about encounter balance all that much because of Bounded Accuracy. Making mistakes with encounter design won't be so terrible because the math won't be all that exacting. With 5e, I don't see the DM being forced use tables full of formulas to create basic custom encounters.
 


Rhenny

Adventurer
For my playstyle the 5MWD is not an issue. The use of powerful open ended spells contribute to fun of the game. For my game, such spells act as cues for improvisational play and help focus the game towards a product of the imagination and not a product of the mechanics.

IMO, the DM won't have to worry about encounter balance all that much because of Bounded Accuracy. Making mistakes with encounter design won't be so terrible because the math won't be all that exacting. With 5e, I don't see the DM being forced use tables full of formulas to create basic custom encounters.

I agree. So far in our playtesting group this has been the case. It is far easier to have a mixed level PC party with 5e, and it is possible for the party to face at level encounters +/- 6 or 7 (as long as the party isn't outnumbered by too many critters).

I've made adventures in RPGTO built for 4 or 5 PCs of X level, and prior to the game, if I have only 3 players, I've been able to spend 10 minutes eyeballing the encounters to take away some critters here and there, and viola, the adventure runs just as well. That's awesome flexibility for a system.
 

Lokiare

Banned
Banned
For my playstyle the 5MWD is not an issue. The use of powerful open ended spells contribute to fun of the game. For my game, such spells act as cues for improvisational play and help focus the game towards a product of the imagination and not a product of the mechanics.

IMO, the DM won't have to worry about encounter balance all that much because of Bounded Accuracy. Making mistakes with encounter design won't be so terrible because the math won't be all that exacting. With 5e, I don't see the DM being forced use tables full of formulas to create basic custom encounters.

I'm sorry, the moderators told me my viewpoints are too controversial and asked me not to talk about 5E or I would respond to this post.
 

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