What a great storytelling DM looks like

Ariosto, maybe you could help us out by giving some details of your actual play?

I'm interested in your perspective, but I can (and have) read theories and texts on my own. The most unique thing I can get from your contribution to this thread is how you personally translate ideas into action at the table.

As a GM, what techniques do you use to facilitate gameplay that's enjoyable for you and your players? Do you play with people who've been playing with one another for a long time, newbies, or a mix of both? Does everyone come to the game with the same expectations about GM style; if so, why, if not, what do you to to get them on the right page?
 

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Ariosto, I feel like we're talking past each other. Just to be clear, I agree that a sandbox style game with a neutral arbiter GM is a fun and valid way of playing D&D. I never said anything to the contrary, and I don't think I implied anything to the contrary. I'm certainly not trying to deny that this is Gygax's style and that it's been around for a real long time. I've played in quite a few of those games and quite enjoyed some.

So, when we have the following back and forth:

Ariosto said:
How is this reconciled with the distinction of the role of GM, the asymmetry of participant powers?

I'm not sure what there is to reconcile. Acting as a strictly neutral arbiter and/or scenario builder aren't the only things GMs can do. They can also act as editors or directors. It's just a question of whether or not they choose to. Either way, the GM has a ton of power, and the only real limit is the GM's ability to make it fun for the players so they don't leave.

To some of us those are most definitely different things, the question of just which we're getting into being in fact the essential question! This is a position very well founded in a long and well documented history, so conventional as to be about as trivial a thing as I can imagine. Prefer away, whichever you will! Denial of the fact of alternatives is not helpful, though.

I'm denying the alternative. Of course, a GM can be a neutral arbiter -- I never said otherwise. What I'm saying is that a GM can also act as an editor and a director and this doesn't make him not a GM. (and, certainly, the DMG2 seems to agree.)

But there are plenty of other "story telling techniques" that are part of the GM's "guide and participate" role. I think there's a chapter in the DMG2 devoted largely to this subject.
Yes; the very first chapter. Has anyone here read it? (I think they got Robin Laws to write at least a portion.)
Of course, we've read it! (Well, at least some of us have read it.) I wouldn't have presented it as an example of Storytelling techniques, otherwise. In particular, I recommend the sections on:
Classic Story Structure
Turning Points
Branching
Cooperative Arcs
Recurring Characters
Predestined
Vignettes

I'll also note the more generic sections on Introducing Player Suggestions and What Your Players Want, which I think are written from a story telling perspective, but are probably equally applicable to a sandbox game.

So, the difference looks to me like this: In the "non-storytelling" game, the player makes a choice and consequences follow; the freedom to choose is directly actual. In the "storytelling" game, that really just presents a choice for the GM: whether to allow the consequences or to replace them with 'guidance'.

Yes and no. If a PC makes a well-informed (or knowingly ill-informed decision) decision, then I'll almost always allow the consequences to take place.

I think an important role of a GM is to make sure that the PC's decisions have intentionality. The players need enough context so that they have a fair chance of understanding the potential consequences of their actions. Otherwise, they are just acting randomly with (perceived) random results. Therefore, if a player tries to do something that suggests to me that the player lacks understanding that his or her character would have, I'll tell the player what his or her character knows and give the player a chance to reconsider the action. But I don't think of that as being a part of the "story telling" style -- it's just a part of GMing.

But there are rare occasions in which guidance will be more story directed. For example, I have two PCs with a romantic interest in one another. One character gave the other a very thoughtful gift, but then said something stupid which made the recipient uninterested in speaking to the giver for quite some time. It was a delightful and organic misunderstanding. It was also very convenient because the recipient was going to be missing the next 6 or 7 sessions while the other PCs were planning on traveling to a new city. So, when the giver tried to correct the misunderstanding, I assumed my "director" role and told him not to fix it. It was much better narratively if the recipient character spent the next few sessions off in a huff.

But, as a general matter, good story telling GMing isn't about interfering with player choice. Once the PCs have made a decision, a good GM needs to respect it (at least most of the time). The main way in which a story telling GM gets involved is by deciding what the adventure is, while allowing the players to decide how to play it. War of the Burning Sky is a good example of this, as SteveC discussed above at http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...storytelling-dm-looks-like-8.html#post5086789.

The question is how they get to "make meaningful decisions that have significant consequences." <snip> The devil is in the details, not in the hand-waving.

That's going to depend on the game, of course. For a general discussion, see the Branching section in the DMG2.

The Aalterdam games at AnonyCon are also good examples of this. It's a two round format in which the first round sets up the scenario and the second around allows the PCs to determine the direction that the world takes until the next convention. So, for example, the first round might put the PCs on a quest seeking out the Fountain of Youth. In the second round, they find it (they have to overcome obstacles first, but they're certainly expected to succeed) and have the difficult inter-PC discussion of what to do with it, with profound implications for the game world. (Because of those decisions, there is a city state now ruled by an effectively immortal former-PC.) It's a convention game, but it's an example of how strong GM direction puts the PCs in a position in which their decisions have a major impact on the game world.

-KS
 

The question is, what are those additional techniques?

KidSnide's provided a good rundown. Personally, here's a couple of the ones I use most often:

Themes. Choosing, for instance, to stock a dungeon with critters that are all thematically related and omitting anything that, while logical, is more distracting from the overall motif. For example, the choice not to use ice toads in a Viking-themed frozen north game; although they're a viable mechanical choice, it's not terribly Norse to fight giant amphibians.

Dramatic pacing. Setting up adventures so that you start with minions and outriders, the tension builds as you fight more and more dangerous foes, and finally having a big dramatic conflict at the end. To use examples from as far back as AD&D, the GDQ series and A1-4 are good examples of dramatic pacing: the hill giants lead to the frost giants, who lead to the fire giants, and then you're in the Underdark, and it all culminates in a climactic battle against a demon queen.

That is the case in the non-storytelling game.

This will happen a fair amount. The definition of a storytelling game is not "the diametric opposite of a non-storytelling game." You will see elements common to both: dice, character sheets, orcs. I'd guess there are very few RPGs out there that use no storytelling techniques whatsoever. The most telling distinction is that storytelling games make more active and conscious use of them.

Well, as a matter of fact some prior concept of "the story" is necessary in order to "guide" anything toward it and away from something else. You've got to know the way to San Jose before you can choose it on that basis! Otherwise, you're right back to the old "non-storytelling" game in which whatever happens is -- after the fact -- identified as "the story". The arrow of time and causality here is a fact of life.

Bear in mind that the story does not have a fixed point as a goal. It's not like locating San Jose on a map. It's about opportunity. Consider the "lean forward"/"lean back" discussion. If I'm leaning forward, so to speak, it's to add some extra tension or drama to a scene for the purposes of that scene. Where it ends up, I don't know: but I will raise the stakes a bit if I think that's going to engage the players more and get some more narrative juice out of the story. Enhancing the story is more a matter of encouraging one of many "highly appropriate" things to happen than one required thing.

Again, no difference is addressed. The difference that I would like to see addressed is that you are moving the GM from a disinterested judge to a judge with an agenda. The exceptional powers remain, but not the critical distinction in role.

Yes, the difference is definitely a change from disinterest to interest. However, the judge's agenda doesn't have to be tyrannical. It is an agenda of "make things interesting and exciting." And the judge exercises those powers on that agenda. Exercising those powers to a more personal or self-serving agenda such as making the players adhere to a pre-prepared script is an abuse.

When a GM is forcing events to conform to a "story", he or she is acting like a theatrical director -- not a game umpire. The contrast between what the 'players' are allowed by Orson Welles and the decisive decision-making many people associate with playing a game is the point here.

First, a caveat that I believe the "director" metaphor is implicitly imperfect. That said, you have to understand the distinction between a director and a scriptwriter, and the duties that a director may have other than giving directions to the principal actors. Thinking of a director as principally a scriptwriter and dialogue coach for PCs is going to give you the wrong impression. It's the other duties of a director (and stage manager, and SFX, and central casting, and producer) that make such a metaphor close to viable.

So, rules example from AD&D of guiding a character's personal story: Name level. The rules are actually guiding you to move into a "become a lord of the land, attract followers" evolution of your character story. They guide you in that direction by scaling back your hit points and making the option of attracting followers tied to that level. But they can't force you to become a lord. They just make it an attractive option.

It's pretty much like that. You nudge by providing more rewards for following a thematic character arc, but you don't demand obedience. Characters who pursue romantic subplots get extra, and appropriate rewards. Vikings who chase Viking-themed stories get extra rewards for doing so. That sort of thing.

Yet more avoidance of actual dialog?

It doesn't get any more complicated than that. No group is required to justify their desire to play D&D to anyone else. "Why aren't you playing Storyteller instead?" is a valid question if the group is not having much fun, particularly if the person asking knows and likes Storyteller and is earnestly looking to help. But if the group is having fun with a story-informed D&D, then questioning their motives just comes across as "why are you people in my game" petulance, which is the opposite of productive.

Someone could "have a desire for his tractor to fly". However, simply repeating that statement of desire would not answer the really interesting interpretation -- the common-sense interpretation, I think -- of the question, "What makes a tractor a vehicle of choice for flight?" The restatement adds nothing to the conversation!

Going ad absurdum here isn't common sense, and won't help you understand. But the tractor's a good starting point, because it's a multi-purpose tool. It can plow a field, scrape a dirt road, mow a pasture, move hay bales, pull a cart, all kinds of things. That's D&D, all right. And a version of D&D that's built more for storytelling purposes is like a tractor that's being packaged for the rancher rather than the farmer, with all the attachments for a cattle pasture pushed and the ones for plowing and planting and harvesting other kinds of crops on special order. It's aimed at the ranchers who bought all those ranching attachments for the tractor (like the GDQ-model mower and the Name Level(tm) hay bale spike and the Forgotten Realms shovel), and it's aimed at the up-and-coming generation of agriculture students who seem to have an interest spike in ranching.

Though now I admit I'm very entertained by the mental image of a tractor messageboard where a few farmers are posting that a model that wasn't purchased for plowing might as well have wings attached to it. I kind of want to write up a sample thread now. (I may be influenced by this.)

As opposed to everyone playing all those other games the same way?

No, as opposed to D&D being the only game out there that is played in one way for one reason (which would really be bizarre, given all its editions and settings). The premise that D&D doesn't work with storytelling techniques because it wasn't specifically designed for that overall experience is an interesting theory, but the diversity of active D&D campaigns disproves it.

I don't see that. Neither do I see how that is any argument at all for doing a 'makeover' of D&D instead of trying to do storytelling with, say, The Storyteller System.

At this point you'd really have to be the one making the argument for why someone is better served trying to add D&D elements to the Storyteller system than adding storytelling elements to the D&D system. They're already doing (and may have been doing for decades) what they feel they enjoy best and would work most elegantly. Therefore, they've found the "right" solution. How do you prove otherwise? What aspects of the Storyteller system in particular would you cite, and how would you recommend implementing them?

Last but not least, I do not see how "people not playing the same way" gives such self-evident -- for so you treat it -- privilege to those who think that playing it as the designers designed it to be played sucks. How is that a warrant for them to dictate what the game shall "Officially" be to those who have made the mistake of choosing the game because (madness of madnesses!) they actually like it as it is?

The purest "privilege" comes from someone having spent the money to gain the rights to publish D&D, pure and simple. If you were to spend the money to do so, the privilege to shape the latest published form of D&D would be your own. This is of course distinct from to the privilege to play the kind of D&D with your friends that you like best and still call it "D&D", which everyone possesses.

However, the fact that people play D&D in different ways is relevant for multiple reasons. For one, it explains how designers might create the sort of D&D that they enjoy playing, and that other people enjoy playing, and yet that you do not. With the understanding that people play D&D differently, nobody is lying: they're not lying when they say they enjoy it, I'm not lying when I say I enjoy it, and you're not lying when you say you don't.

It also means that there is a market for different styles of D&D. With the business motivation of keeping D&D as a viable brand that is relevant to new gamers every hear, that's an important consideration.

Help me out here; throw me a bone of logical reasoning.

(sigh) At some point I hope to have a discussion without this disagreeable tone of voice marching into it and demanding I salute.

Somehow, it does not appear to me that AD&D became the #1 RPG on the basis of how many people thought it was the wrong design with the wrong design goals.

Well, you absolutely can't discount being the first and having the most name recognition as reasons it became #1. That said, it retained that crown because it could be played in a lot of ways. If there were no concessions to other play styles, if there were a way to enforce all players to play it in exactly the same fashion without emphasizing storytelling techniques or de-emphasizing some of the more exception-based rules, I doubt its hold would have been anywhere as constant. You'd perhaps find that there were probably about as many people playing "true" D&D as there are currently playing Savage Worlds.

But -- once again -- D&D is a thing of many elements. You can use 75% of the elements as published in any given edition, and change or omit the rest, and you're still playing D&D. Nor is it a new thing for the creators to feel that a significant feworking of the rules would present the experience of D&D better to a different audience. There've been a lot of editions that depart from the old brown box despite the fact that diaglo doesn't need anything else.

And as I said way back, given the wide variety of people who enjoy D&D, even to the extent of owning and playing different editions, that's pretty awesome.
 

Enhancing the story is more a matter of encouraging one of many "highly appropriate" things to happen than one required thing.

It's awesome when this is the case - but even if so, it's not always apparent to the players. I think we've all had the experience of feeling like the fun the GM has provided for the session requires the players to do a certain thing.

That's bad GMing and we're better off focusing on the good, but I think that it's important to remember that you may have players whose experience is shaped by those kinds of experience.

I find it so frustrating as a GM when players seem to be trying to second-guess my intentions and figure out "what are we supposed to do here" that I spend a lot of effort signaling that I don't have any preconceived ideas. Rolling for plot events (using tools which old-school rules provide in abundance like NPC reactions, random encounters, morale checks, etc.) helps me demonstrate that what happens is out of my control; the players can jump in and try anything they like (and in fact they'll need to if they don't want their fate to be entirely random).

I don't see this as entirely abdicating my responsibility to deliver a game that's fun for everyone - it just shifts the level at which I do so, whether that's designing random tables such that all the dice outcomes will be exciting or talking to players out of game to say "you know, if you want social intrigue you should stop wandering the woods."
 

It doesn't get any more complicated than that. No group is required to justify their desire to play D&D to anyone else. "Why aren't you playing Storyteller instead?" is a valid question if the group is not having much fun, particularly if the person asking knows and likes Storyteller and is earnestly looking to help. But if the group is having fun with a story-informed D&D, then questioning their motives just comes across as "why are you people in my game" petulance, which is the opposite of productive.

QFT.

Why do I like using D&D to run and play in story-driven games? Because it is fun. More fun, for me and my friends telling the sort of stories we want to tell, than Storyteller or WHFRP or Fantasycraft or any of the other games we've tried.

The idea that some justification beyond that is required, or that we could somehow be "mistaken" in our belief that D&D is better suited to telling our stories than Storyteller, is silly and, frankly, arrogant and judgemental.

On a related note, the idea that a games cannot be altered, in many cases extremely radically, from their original forms is nonsensical and unfounded. When Joe Naismith invented basketball, nobody could dribble, there was no backboard, and nobody had even heard of "post play" or "jump shots" let alone a 3 pointer. The game that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and Michael Jordan played, that Lebron James and Kobe Bryant play today, has far less in common with the game Naismith first thought up than does D&D4e with OD&D. Does that mean it isn't basketball?
 

What I'm saying is that a GM can also act as an editor and a director and this doesn't make him not a GM.
If it please you, a GM can be any thing you care to name, animal, vegetable or mineral. What goes on between consenting adults in the privacy of your game room is certainly no business of mine.

It seems to me no radical innovation difficult to grasp that I reserve the right to expect a referee of a game in which I will play to act as just that, not as an 'editor', 'director', 'producer', 'completion insurance underwriter' or any other such job description that in fact does not appear in the rules-book.

(I am not likely any time soon again to play either 4E or The Alan Smithee Project.)

Of course, we've read it!
You were just uncertain in which book you read it, eh? Memory can get tricky with age!

A convention game can be a fine change of pace, and for a number of reasons they tend to be pretty constrained. Setting up a scenario is hardly some hot new experimental technique, though! I have played my share in Squad Leader, and countless other games, without any imposition of 'story telling'.

To go beyond the set-up, though, and 'play the game' for the players, is to me intolerable. I imagine you have heard of negative reactions to the presumption of the Dragonlance modules. Some years later, Vecna Lives! epitomized why I stopped buying from TSR.

(From what I have heard, RPGA tournaments, then or a bit later, had basically devolved into "Most Popular Drama Queen" contests. Hearing of that is the closest I have come to encountering the extreme that some folks raise as necessitating the opposite extreme of replacing role-playing with roll-playing. Curiously, though, that was with "social skill" NWPs in play!)

My main D&D group recently tried a 'storyline' setup for several sessions. I suppose we'll go back and wrap it up this month or next, but we put it on hiatus by consensus -- with the DM taking the lead in suggesting that.

Besides not being what I want when I want a game of D&D, it highlighted how poorly suited many aspects of the old game are to a certain cramped sort of 'campaign'. A good selection of the "usual suspects" in complaints of alleged poor design came up, when the rules were put to this use for which they assuredly were not designed.

(The DM's attempts to 'fix' some of those with house rules sometimes demonstrated the Law of Unintended Consequences, and in any case gave the enterprise only the less resemblance to Dungeons & Dragons as we had known it.)

I have run some pretty tightly plotted affairs, 'railroads' par excellence, but (A) they were entirely games of my own design, not by any stretch D&D; and (B) they were single-session undertakings. One of them was rather risky, as if players had chosen to respond not merely with a different course of action but with a different perspective on -- a different interpretation of -- events, then the dramatic structure would have been seriously weakened.

(I really, really do not like it when a GM expects people to "act as if" they are ignorant, surprised, or otherwise incapable of taking sensible courses of action. There is an extent to which I can accept strictures, certainly. Bans on outrageous anachronisms are pretty common. However integral that kind of acting, though, may be to a career on stage or screen, it is not the sort of challenge I want in a game! In that latter circumstance, I want to be challenged to use my intelligence and skill. If I am genuinely mystified or surprised, then that is a delight!)

It's a convention game, but it's an example of how strong GM direction puts the PCs in a position in which their decisions have a major impact on the game world.
Juan Ponce de León was the very model of an 'adventurer' of the sort one might hope to emulate in old-style D&D. His own strong direction put him in a position in which his decisions might have a major impact on the world. (And he never found, and probably never really sought, the Fountain of Youth.)
 
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It's awesome when this is the case - but even if so, it's not always apparent to the players. I think we've all had the experience of feeling like the fun the GM has provided for the session requires the players to do a certain thing.

That's bad GMing and we're better off focusing on the good, but I think that it's important to remember that you may have players whose experience is shaped by those kinds of experience.

Yes. Absolutely yes. It's an easy trap to fall into, because it's the easiest sort of prep time, so I feel a certain level of sympathy for GMs who don't know better yet — but it's pretty punishing on the fun aspect. Bad storytelling GMs spread a bad reputation around quick, and sometimes it's all but impossible to convince someone that what they perceive as the basis of "storytelling style" was an example of doing it badly.

I don't see this as entirely abdicating my responsibility to deliver a game that's fun for everyone - it just shifts the level at which I do so, whether that's designing random tables such that all the dice outcomes will be exciting or talking to players out of game to say "you know, if you want social intrigue you should stop wandering the woods."

I wouldn't want to suggest that you'd be abdicating that responsibility. I don't think that non-storytelling GMs are any less invested as a whole in their players' enjoyment. It's just the methodology of keeping that enjoyment high — designing those fun random tables versus ad-libbing a quick story trope — that I think you see the primary difference between the styles.
 
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Barastrondo said:
The purest "privilege" comes from someone having spent the money to gain the rights to publish D&D, pure and simple.
Thank you! That is at least rational and related to the question as it was put (not so much what I had in mind, but that's my own miscommunication). It's a circular argument of a sort, in that it is privileging any old thing WotC happened to choose -- not at all that particular one on any merit. It is indeed the practical fact of the matter, though!

At some point I hope to have a discussion without this disagreeable tone of voice marching into it and demanding I salute.
I disagree with your unreasonable demands for unreasoning assent, especially when I disagree with the supposed Truths. Your haughty dismissals of questions certainly tempted responses more in keeping with your unpleasant tenor. On point after point, you not only offered no logic but did not at all address the matter at hand. The arch manner of avoidance was of the sort used to imply, "You are stupid for asking such a question." If you truly thought that would be helpful in the furtherance of understanding, then I am curious to learn why. It is simply the nature of things that sometimes a statement "isn't even wrong" without some logical context. Something may seem a perfectly self-evident axiom to you while being -- at best, perhaps! -- perfectly obscure to someone else (perhaps less intellectually agile). At worst, it may seem "obviously" something other than what you mean. So, making explicit some of the links in your chain of reasoning may be a big help.

You can use 75% of the elements as published in any given edition, and change or omit the rest, and you're still playing D&D.
Well, of course you are free to say that -- or that using but 58.33% of any 'D&D' edition, one would still be playing Palladium Fantasy. It all depends on the definition, and you are -- as far as I see -- simply appealing to yourself as "authority". Maybe you can see how far that bull is as binding as the electrons it's printed on.

Practical interoperability, however, is quite another matter. It's something one can test. Are X and Y "the same game" to the extent that it's no problem to mix up character sheets? Are they different to the extent that a scenario for one requires "conversion" to the other? How much does that require familiarity with both?

How much more or less convenient is it than a collision with, say, Chivalry & Sorcery or RuneQuest?

This really has only a little to do with the matter of 'storytelling' but all considered I think that little pretty notable. With 4e, I don't think it's just something tacked on as an afterthought in DMG2. I see a lot of care in the design, and above all an unprecedented -- in the annals of 'editions' -- willingness to dump D&D traditions that would just be baggage weighing down the movement in a different direction.
 


It seems to me no radical innovation difficult to grasp that I reserve the right to expect a referee of a game in which I will play to act as just that, not as an 'editor', 'director', 'producer', 'completion insurance underwriter' or any other such job description that in fact does not appear in the rules-book.

I will simply point out that the current edition of the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 includes a chapter, much of which is dedicated to teaching how to be an "editor" / "director", at least as I use the terms in this context.

I'm not saying that you have to play that way. As you note, you're welcome to play however you enjoy in the comfort of your own home. However, storytelling style isn't some random weird thing, but is - in fact - a core part of modern D&D, which is why it's discussed in the manual about how to run D&D.

To go beyond the set-up, though, and 'play the game' for the players, is to me intolerable. I imagine you have heard of negative reactions to the presumption of the Dragonlance modules. Some years later, Vecna Lives! epitomized why I stopped buying from TSR.

Lastly, while Vecna Lives! may be an example of a truly awful story telling adventure, that doesn't mean that every story telling adventure shares its negative characteristics. In fact, there's a forum on this site in which you can see folks quite enjoying War of the Burning Sky, a much better example of the genre.

I've certainly never been in a well-run story telling game in which the players felt that the GM was playing the game for them. I don't think a story telling game will ever be your style, Ariosto, but I sometimes wonder if you've played in a good one. Your posts often describe the entire genre as having features that I think of as only being present in story telling games gone awry -- kind of like describing a history of transportation based solely on the Hidenberg, the Titanic and the HMS Bounty.

-KS
 

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