What about adventures?

[Ahnehnois]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you conflating players with DMs or am I completely misunderstanding you?

The consumers of the game. I am including players and DMs in the sense you are referring to. DMs also play the game. I probably should have phrased that more clearly.

The point is that D&D is about creating your own stories. For some, it is helpful to have a prepackaged story to save prep time or to help out people who aren't able to create their own, but that isn't something I would build a business around. If anything, I would be trying to make it easier for DMs (and players) to exercise their own creativity, rather than trying to do the work for them. If anything, I think published adventures limit your customer base and detract from the merit of D&D rules as tools for storytelling. If I were WotC, I would be focusing on making the best game possible, and leave this sort of thing to 3rd party publishers.

In other words, I think the aforementioned focus on the substance of D&D (the rules) in this forum is entirely appropriate.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

[MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION]: OK, got it.

Actually, as I read your argument I realise I am even more strongly aligned with my original point than I was when I made it.

Of course, D&D is about creating your own stories. My point is that it is vital that there be introductory adventures, available at the time 5E is released (and properly edited and playtested), to showcase to new and even experienced DMs what the new edition is about.

I'm not suggesting a full adventure path stretching out to Epic levels (or their 5E equivalent) but definitely something that could be considered a mini-campaign. Three adventures might be just right with some notes in the last adventure about how to expand it should the DM wish to do so.

I really see the value in showing new DMs the new rules in action. If you like, it's doing 4E in reverse: the 4E adventures managed to showcase the worst parts of 4E and how not to do adventure design. I am sincerely hoping the initial adventures for 5E have the opposite effect.

(Also, rules don't exist in a vacuum. If you're going to design rules you have to consider the game that is actually going to be played at the table. In D&D's case that game takes place within the context of an adventure.)

 

[Yora]

It's been a long time since WotC produced consistently good adventures (actually, they never have... and TSR stopped doing it about halfway through the 1E era)

And at that time, adventures were hack and slay dungeon crawls. Good dungeon crawls, but I don't think there is any demand for those anymore.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Of course, D&D is about creating your own stories. My point is that it is vital that there be introductory adventures, available at the time 5E is released (and properly edited and playtested), to showcase to new and even experienced DMs what the new edition is about.

I'm not suggesting a full adventure path stretching out to Epic levels (or their 5E equivalent) but definitely something that could be considered a mini-campaign. Three adventures might be just right with some notes in the last adventure about how to expand it should the DM wish to do so.

I can see that point. I prefer, however, that even new DMs be encouraged to just pick up the game and go. There's no substitute for that moment when a player first asks you a question that you don't know the answer to and you have to make a decision, using the rules and using your own judgment. It's a sink or swim moment. Great things come out of that. I think it's best that people learn how to use the rules and improvise a story at the same time, because both are part of running a game.

I really see the value in showing new DMs the new rules in action. If you like, it's doing 4E in reverse: the 4E adventures managed to showcase the worst parts of 4E and how not to do adventure design. I am sincerely hoping the initial adventures for 5E have the opposite effect.

I guess that would support my idea of adventures actually detracting from the game itself. I'm sure they will put out something for 5e, and I do hope it will be better.

(Also, rules don't exist in a vacuum. If you're going to design rules you have to consider the game that is actually going to be played at the table. In D&D's case that game takes place within the context of an adventure.)

I don't think the structure implied by the term "adventure" exists everywhere. Personally, I run sessions and I run campaigns, but I never made any real distinction about some unit of play in between the two. But setting aside the semantic issue, I worry that if they design around certain published adventures, they'll optimize for those, and leave other styles out to dry. For all the positives I see from Paizo, this is one of the big negatives, how their "fluff" sometimes influences their "crunch", usually to the latter's detriment. Invariably, whatever a writer can come up with-characters, stories, settings-is not as good for an individual group as what the group members come up with themselves.

 

[Viking Bastard]

And at that time, adventures were hack and slay dungeon crawls. Good dungeon crawls, but I don't think there is any demand for those anymore.

I don't think that's true. I'm not saying there isn't demand for Adventure Paths, but it seems to me that demand is pretty divided between APs and more sandboxy-elements, like dungeons and adventure locales.

 

[steeldragons]

I, for one, hope to see some published adventures. Particularly for the lower levels, when the game is first starting out.

Ideally, they would include a "Keep on the Borderlands" type of "experimental/get to know the basics of the game" type module...preferably IN the "basics" boxed set [which I am also hoping for ] but separate will do. And again for more "middling" levels, introducing a few more elements of play beyond dungeon/hack-n-slash/get to know the rules, a la the Isle of Dread...again with/in the "expert" boxed set [again, a hope]. Either or both should be easily portable to use with the "advanced" game hard cover books.

Additionally, the published adventure module seems an ideal place t introduce various "rules option modules" within them. Introduce those to people...but write them as if they don't need to be used...just put up front, "this module uses these optional rules modules. leave them out if you prefer/don't use them." But it strikes me as a good way to introduce some optional modules that people might not use/have tried yet and want to "test out"...and/or additional "optional rules modules" that may or may not have made the cut for the PHB/DMG.

So...yes...one way or the other, I hope to see some form/series of published complete/contained adventure modules.

Obviously, writing/organizing them to include various forms of play/different sets of rules options might not be easy, not saying it will be, but I hope they give it a go and are well-written and cool plot ideas to generate the Next generation of "new classics" for 5e.

[EDIT] OH! And in case it doesn't go without saying, ALL of them should be created around/written to include the "3 pillars" of combat/exploration/interaction...incorporating all three in some fashion throughout the plot...So no single class/character options are left feeling jipped. [/EDIT]
--SD

 

[KidSnide]

The key to providing good adventures for D&DN is for WotC to find a way to benefit when third parties write adventures for their game.

I would suggest that WotC invest in a PDF store and on-line tools that help with running the adventures (printable maps and tokens, VTT integration, monster summaries, maybe print-on-demand). That way third parties can go through the effort of writing the adventures, and WotC can take a cut of material sold through their store.

-KS

 

[Yora]

I don't think that's true. I'm not saying there isn't demand for Adventure Paths, but it seems to me that demand is pretty divided between APs and more sandboxy-elements, like dungeons and adventure locales.

Sandbox yes, but 1st Ed. modules where floor plans with encounters. A solid sendbox module has a lot more.

 

[Daven]

After 15 years of playing, I think I can tell that I am good at DMing, playing NPCs, or having the right pace on session, but I am very bad at creating adventures or long campaigns. I am just a little good at running free sessions without a story behind.
But... I love long stories narrated through roleplaying, and considering that I am bad at writing them... I need adventures, adventures paths, published campaigns.
Not everybody excel both at writing and playing as DM. I think they are different things, and for myself, I think that without good published adventures I would not buy a roleplaying game.
Even with bad published adventures, I am good enough to modify them and get a fine thing, but starting from zero... it's not for me.
I think that many people are in my situation, so long life to published adventures!

 

[Sunseeker]

I do believe they will get there. Whipping a creative and interesting adventure is system neutral. My current system of choice is 4e, because I find DMing to be easy and smooth, however, I prefer to play in 3.X/Pathfinder, as it gives me more creativity as a player. My world that I created is system neutral, everything that exists exists without concern for edition-specific rules that may govern the adventure.

This I think, may be a great selling point for 5e, and perfectly befitting it's level of modularity. Give us adventures that don't demand we run XYZ mods, or system A, B, or C. If adventures are more great stories with included instructions for how to translate them into a game, they will appeal to any editioner.