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What about D&D 5e levels 21-30?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What is someone did a Kickstarter? Also, I do not agree that its a guaranteed money loss.
Right. It's not going to be a money loss, or cost the company players. I mean, "Guys. They just put out a book that we will never use and will never impact our game. Let's quit." is not a thing you are going to hear in enough numbers to actually matter.

The problem is that it will not make enough money to be attractive to the company. Why would the company make a book that costs $10,000 to make and would bring in a few hundred thousand in revenue, when they could make a book for lower levels that costs $10,000 to make and would bring in a few million in revenue? They wouldn't.
 

Dausuul

Legend
We all have stuff we'd like to see WotC do. I want them to produce a 5E Libris Mortis, a 5E Dark Sun*, and an all-new zombie apocalypse setting.

I could make an argument for any or all of these having good sales prospects. I might even be right. But WotC has a long-term strategy for 5E which calls for a limited number of releases targeting a broad audience. That isn't just about sales numbers in a vacuum; it's about brand and market saturation. As long as that strategy is working for them--and it is, in spades--they aren't going to toss it over the side and start cranking out one-offs with niche appeal, the way they did in previous editions. I can't expect them to make an exception for my personal niche.

Based on what Mike Mearls has said, I have some hope that Dark Sun will come along eventually, but if I want Libris Mortis or a zombie apocalypse setting**, I can either search the DM's Guild or build them myself. That's what the DM's Guild is for. Epic-level play is in the same boat.

* But only if it's based on the original boxed set. The revised boxed set is an abomination which should be forgotten forever. If WotC releases a Dark Sun book with the word "Rajaat" in it anywhere, they are Dead To Me.
** Yes, there is a theme to these requests.
 

Jer

Adventurer
There are a lot of reasons that Epic level support ends up being a no-go area for WotC. Epic level adventures are hard to write - the power level of Epic characters means that you have to rethink what it means to challenge them. It's not so much the battles - which is mostly a matter of math and encounter design (though 5e certainly doesn't help as much with this as it could) - but the rest of the challenges that make up an adventure. Either you have to be really creative in designing the scenario - and risk creating something that a whole lot of people say "well, that doesn't feel like D&D to me" or you have to "nerf" the power level and force the characters into situations where their awesome powers can't help them - in which case why are you bothering to run an Epic campaign?

Then there are the constraints that the culture around the game has created to make Epic play less viable for a large swathe of the people playing. If you've got a group who believe that playing a campaign means that you start at level 1, then you're talking a fairly serious investment of time in getting your characters up to that epic level. And since the game shifts significantly in how it is played around level 5 or so, you see a lot of people who really enjoy the level 1-5 play experience start to get dissatisfied with the game and agitate to start a new campaign around level 10 or so. If there were more groups who were willing to create 15th level characters and just run an epic game there'd be more of a market for epic material.

For myself, my 5e groups are still in that 5-10 tier and so there aren't any worries on that front yet (and they're mostly kids and so they think the gameplay at those levels is awesome rather than unsatisfying). And my group that is at "epic" levels is playing 13th Age. What I've noticed when I've run Epic games in the past - including my 13A game currently - is that the stories almost have to be more personalized to the group than lower level ones are. Sure I'll mine things like old Companion/Master set adventures for ideas, but when the game hits the table I've usually modified them heavily to fit my group's needs. So even if Wizards were putting out good solid Epic level material, it might not be something I'd be buying because, well, I'd still have to put a lot of work into it to make it fit my campaign.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hello to you as well and thank you!
Howdy dave mate! :)

Well, I have been working on this since 5e came out, so I get it!
:D

That is why I started with making epic monsters first! 5e Epic Monster Updates But those are just first drafts (200+ of them though). They will all have to be updated to my new system.
Those are some hefty looking stat-blocks amigo. I'd try and shy away from multi-page stat-blocks for single monsters/individuals.

The real problem to me is what are high level mooks? I think I have basically decided that hordes, legions, host of demons/devils/angels are the new mooks. Of course, ideally when your playing deities, you can find other things to do than fight. I am working on that front too.
I think part of designing epic creatures (including mooks) is justifying their existence within a Campaign world/universe. The main way I do this is to align with one of the dimensions (to borrow an idea from the OD&D Immortals). I have a bunch of these epic+ threats created and I thought it might be nice to base an adventure around a few of them.

I have decided to make the players & monsters abilities and stats relative based on their epic rank. So, if you look at Athena's stat block, epic rank 4 (greater god), her stats are for use against other creatures of epic rank 4. However, if she engages a creature of a different epic rank, her stats are modified.

EX: Athena's spear attack does 50 damage against an Epic Rank 4 Titan. that same attack does 800 damage to a mortal creature (Epic Rank 0). Hit Points are similarly relative (she has 1500 HP vs ER 4 & 12,000 HP + resistance to all damage vs a mortal).
If its a flat multiplier (to HP & Damage) then why not just have that in the stat block from the beginning? Or is there more to it?

I debated whether or not this would be too complex in play, but I think I have done most of the work in the statblocks themselves and it leads to such interesting interactions I think I am going to stick with it.
I say go for it - sounds like an interesting solution.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Those are some hefty looking stat-blocks amigo. I'd try and shy away from multi-page stat-blocks for single monsters/individuals.
Yes, the goal was to not go beyond one page. However, I was making exceptions for Tiamat and the Primordials which can't really fit on one page. On a 2nd pass I would simply some of them a bit too.

I think part of designing epic creatures (including mooks) is justifying their existence within a Campaign world/universe. The main way I do this is to align with one of the dimensions (to borrow an idea from the OD&D Immortals). I have a bunch of these epic+ threats created and I thought it might be nice to base an adventure around a few of them.
I'm get design a reason for them, but I am not understanding what you mean by align with a dimension. That didn't really have much of an impact that I remember in the Immortal Rules.

If its a flat multiplier (to HP & Damage) then why not just have that in the stat block from the beginning? Or is there more to it?
There is a lot more tied into the epic rank, but I go back and forth. At first it was a desire to prevent numbers inflation. But after making the stat blocks for 5 of these new epic monsters I began to question it again. I think you might be right, I think I can keep the rest of the dynamics of my epic ranks and just have the numbers inflate for range, damage, and HP. I can do that in the stat blocks and then PCs can do it dynamically for spells and the like. Now I need to go update the stat blocks before I send them to my backers tonight!

I say go for it - sounds like an interesting solution.
Thanks, i will! :p
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
Easy you rewrite the Tiers. My idea for the WOTC is to put out an official epic level handbook. I would make it for levels 21-30 and it would include monsters with appropriate CR's. This can happen and I think with enough effort we can convince the WOTC to create this product for us. Have faith.
Then that looks like a challenge to make more CR21+(and eventually CR30+) monsters. The WOTC need to make it happen.
I looked at it and it looks really good. There should be no issue with creating monsters with CR30+ to challenge higher level players levels 21-30. Your work shows that clearly. That should be a kickstarter to force the WOTC to take action.
You keep stating what WotC should do. Maybe this is a language thing, but if not, I just don't think you get it. You do not get to decide what WotC does unless;
- you go buy 50% of Hasbro stock for about $7bil USD.
And they aren't going to listen to your wants/suggestions unless;
- you build a market for epic level D&D content that would sell somewhere near 3000 copies.

Because either you need to be the owner of the multi-billion dollar company or you need to show the executives that run a multi-billion dollar company that what you wants makes sense to their stockholders.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey Dave amigo! :)

Yes, the goal was to not go beyond one page. However, I was making exceptions for Tiamat and the Primordials which can't really fit on one page. On a 2nd pass I would simply some of them a bit too.
If something had multiple stat-blocks I'd go to multiple pages otherwise I'd always try and keep it to 1 (or under) but I guess there are always exceptions to any rule.

I'm get design a reason for them, but I am not understanding what you mean by align with a dimension. That didn't really have much of an impact that I remember in the Immortal Rules.
Well IIRC all the monsters in OD&D (immortals) are linked to one of their dimensions. There was always the sense that if its 'dimensional' then it doesn't necessarily have to exist* 'naturally' in the world.

*or co-exist

There is a lot more tied into the epic rank, but I go back and forth. At first it was a desire to prevent numbers inflation. But after making the stat blocks for 5 of these new epic monsters I began to question it again. I think you might be right, I think I can keep the rest of the dynamics of my epic ranks and just have the numbers inflate for range, damage, and HP. I can do that in the stat blocks and then PCs can do it dynamically for spells and the like. Now I need to go update the stat blocks before I send them to my backers tonight!
Its a lot simpler method and Occam's Razor always says that's the best.

With 3E for instance I could never have done that because Hit Dice, Level, Divine Bonuses and all sorts of stuff.

Incidentally what made you go for a 5 CR jump between 'Divine Ranks'? It seemed natural to go with proficiency bonus - although going over differences between how 2 lower CRs equal one higher CR maybe it condenses it too much.

Thanks, i will! :p
;-)
 

Rafael Martin

Villager
You keep stating what WotC should do. Maybe this is a language thing, but if not, I just don't think you get it. You do not get to decide what WotC does unless;
- you go buy 50% of Hasbro stock for about $7bil USD.
And they aren't going to listen to your wants/suggestions unless;
- you build a market for epic level D&D content that would sell somewhere near 3000 copies.

Because either you need to be the owner of the multi-billion dollar company or you need to show the executives that run a multi-billion dollar company that what you wants makes sense to their stockholders.
Its not a language thing. What I can do is create my own version of a d&d 5e high level handbook and then just share it online for free. Its not about money for me, but I am sure it is for Hasbro and their stockholders. By the way it really should be for levels 21-40, which can be easily done.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Hey Dave amigo! :)
howdy epic master UK
If something had multiple stat-blocks I'd go to multiple pages otherwise I'd always try and keep it to 1 (or under) but I guess there are always exceptions to any rule.
IDK, I seem to remember some pretty epic multi-page 4e stat blocks you made. 😜
Well IIRC all the monsters in OD&D (immortals) are linked to one of their dimensions. There was always the sense that if its 'dimensional' then it doesn't necessarily have to exist* 'naturally' in the world.
*or co-exist
If a remember correctly mortals are 4 dimensional, but can only perceive and Immortald at 5th dimensional and can perceive 4 dimensions. However, I don’t understand how this helps with a place in the cosmos and “minions” and “mooks”

Its a lot simpler method and Occam's Razor always says that's the best.
agreed

Incidentally what made you go for a 5 CR jump between 'Divine Ranks'? It seemed natural to go with proficiency bonus - although going over differences between how 2 lower CRs equal one higher CR maybe it condenses it too much.
I don’t believe I said it was a 5 cr difference in epic ranks. I actually have figured that out yet as they are independent of each other. One of the points is that you can have different CRs within the same epic rank
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
Its not a language thing. What I can do is create my own version of a d&d 5e high level handbook and then just share it online for free. Its not about money for me, but I am sure it is for Hasbro and their stockholders. By the way it really should be for levels 21-40, which can be easily done.
Let us know when you make it available, I look forward to seeing it.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Its not a language thing. What I can do is create my own version of a d&d 5e high level handbook and then just share it online for free. Its not about money for me, but I am sure it is for Hasbro and their stockholders. By the way it really should be for levels 21-40, which can be easily done.
Not only can you do that, somebody already did. In fact, several somebodies. Here's the most popular one on the DM's Guild, complete with levels 21-40, as requested: Epic Level Characters level 21-40 - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

If you're right, one of those should be rocketing up the popularity list. At the moment, however, none of the 5E Epic books is cracking the top 50. By contrast, "Killer Kobolds from Outer Space" is #29.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Level 21+ is probably 1% of the market, 5,% tops and I suspect that is generous.

1% is probably generous.
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
Not only can you do that, somebody already did. In fact, several somebodies. Here's the most popular one on the DM's Guild, complete with levels 21-40, as requested: Epic Level Characters level 21-40 - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

If you're right, one of those should be rocketing up the popularity list. At the moment, however, none of the 5E Epic books is cracking the top 50. By contrast, "Killer Kobolds from Outer Space" is #29.
Yep, and for reference, that resource is Electrum, which means it has sold between 251 and 500 copies, at a suggest price of $0.50. So the author has made somewhere in the $250 range. WotC would be lucky to use that pay the salary of a designer for a day. Not surprising they haven't made any official Epic level resource. (Yes, we all know a WotC product would sell 100 times what a Guild product would.)
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
howdy epic master UK
Hey dave matey! :)

IDK, I seem to remember some pretty epic multi-page 4e stat blocks you made. 😜
Haha. I dunno, even though I have multi-page entries for characters like Asmodeus, his actual stat block was never more than 1 page and any other pages were for minions, his realm. layer and so forth.

I may have done a multi-page stat block somewhere but I can't remember.

If a remember correctly mortals are 4 dimensional, but can only perceive and Immortald at 5th dimensional and can perceive 4 dimensions. However, I don’t understand how this helps with a place in the cosmos and “minions” and “mooks”
Well for instance if we create something more powerful than an Ancient Red Dragon how can we justify its ecology in the 'real' world (where are they - why haven't we seen them before)...likewise if we have some race more powerful than the Demons - how can we justify them living in the Abyss. By tying a creature to a dimension we don't need to establish its ecology among the universe as we understand it.

I don’t believe I said it was a 5 cr difference in epic ranks. I actually have figured that out yet as they are independent of each other. One of the points is that you can have different CRs within the same epic rank
I only had a quick glance. I was considering tying Divine Rank to Proficiency Bonus. Therefore +7 = Demigod, +8 Lesser God, +9 Inter, +10* Greater, +11 Elder God, +12 Overgod and above etc.

*Hypothetical.

Looking at CRs though and a +5 seems about twice as powerful, +8 triple and +10 quadruple.
 

dave2008

Adventurer
Haha. I dunno, even though I have multi-page entries for characters like Asmodeus, his actual stat block was never more than 1 page and any other pages were for minions, his realm. layer and so forth.

I may have done a multi-page stat block somewhere but I can't remember.
True, I seem to remember multi-stage monster that had multiple pages, but each page was its own stat blocks though. Regardless, I agree in general. It just can't be avoided in a few instances.

Well for instance if we create something more powerful than an Ancient Red Dragon how can we justify its ecology in the 'real' world (where are they - why haven't we seen them before)...likewise if we have some race more powerful than the Demons - how can we justify them living in the Abyss. By tying a creature to a dimension we don't need to establish its ecology among the universe as we understand it.
OK, that makes sense now. Thank you for clarifying! Not my plan, but an interesting idea.

I only had a quick glance. I was considering tying Divine Rank to Proficiency Bonus. Therefore +7 = Demigod, +8 Lesser God, +9 Inter, +10* Greater, +11 Elder God, +12 Overgod and above etc.

*Hypothetical.

Looking at CRs though and a +5 seems about twice as powerful, +8 triple and +10 quadruple.
OK, I get it now. I am tying proficiency bonus to epic level, but epic rank is different (but possibly related - I'm still working on that). I am currently still using CR, but I might drop it completely for epic level creatures as the numbers get a bit ridiculous
 

Stalker0

Adventurer
I've never really understood the need for Epic level adventures, I mean 20th level is already so crazy powerful. I mean the party literally starts their day plane shifting into any area they want, and basically can just curb stomp and geniuely high encounter.

I did a 20th level run where the party fought through Asmodeus' lair, and killed him. It was an incredibly epic adventure, I honestly couldn't imagine how to go any "bigger".

So in other words, 20th level is already so over the top, what more is really needed? I think the Epic Boons add enough little extra if you want to push it, but that's really way more than you ever need.
 

S'mon

Legend
I've never really understood the need for Epic level adventures, I mean 20th level is already so crazy powerful. I mean the party literally starts their day plane shifting into any area they want, and basically can just curb stomp and geniuely high encounter.
Haven't really seen this with my own Epic-20 PC group (Druid-20 Paladin-20 Rogue-20 (arcane trickster) Barbarian-20), maybe because they are light on arcane casting.

Edit: I use 'book' monster stats, albeit I may edit them a bit. Unlike in 3e/PF, PCs don't tend to become invincible in 5e. Though my group have the Sihedron, a super-artifact which certainly helps!
 
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dave2008

Adventurer
I've never really understood the need for Epic level adventures, I mean 20th level is already so crazy powerful. I mean the party literally starts their day plane shifting into any area they want, and basically can just curb stomp and geniuely high encounter.

I did a 20th level run where the party fought through Asmodeus' lair, and killed him. It was an incredibly epic adventure, I honestly couldn't imagine how to go any "bigger".

So in other words, 20th level is already so over the top, what more is really needed? I think the Epic Boons add enough little extra if you want to push it, but that's really way more than you ever need.
The game can be played that way; however, in my game what you described just wouldn't be possible. Mortal PCs, even lvl 20 ones simply can't do the things you suggest. We do more mundane things in our lvl 1-20 games.

For us, the official stats for Tiamat, the Demon Lords, & the Archdevils are just shadows of their true power. To challenge them in their home plane takes something beyond what is possible for mortals, even heroes. For instance, Tiamat is, in our campaign, more the 10x as powerful than the stat block listed in RoT. 20th level PCs can't handle that.

Now, I personally am not in favor of simple adding 10-20 more levels for mortals. I am interested in ascending the to Immortals. Then, they just might be able to challenge Asmodeus - after about a billion years to increase their strength of course.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Explorer
I'm kinda surprised every offering on DM's Guild is going the 21-30 + level route, and no one has developed an 'epic boons' supplement (E20), considering that's the "official" way.
I'm also kinda sad it doesn't look like you'll be developing it, Dave, with the new direction you're taking your epic work (pun intended).
 

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