What are everyones thoughts on Iron Heroes?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Yet another book that I don't think I would ever use but nonetheless want to acquire (that + Ptolus + Dragon Magazine Compendium). I am certain this will be a much interesting book, but I have two questions:

-- About Iron Heroes: I am afraid that the new rules will make the combat system heavier than it already is, and thus combat will last even longer than in regular D&D. Any clue about that?

Fewer spells means less time, I think.

-- About a game without lots of magical items: I probably miss something, but apart from the CR of monsters (which is IMO near useless as done), the need for some magical weapons, and a mean to recover hit-points, I would like to know why so many people think it's impossible to play D&D characters who aren't full of magical items? What would prevent a campaign where 10th level PCs only have one or two magical items (maybe 3 for the lucky guy) each?

Ever seen a high-level PC's AC, damage and saving throw values without magic items? I think the rule you're looking for is "they suck!".

I'm interested in those feats, too. (WotC should learn a lesson from them.)

 

[Tolen Mar]

Ah, I see, Zen Hydra. I misunderstood.

I can see that being useful myself.

On the other hand, once you start designing new classes, you do start breaking from the core anyway. I for one would like to see any classes you make or convert.

 

[Insight]

I don't understand the preceived desirability of using IH classes/characters with regular D&D ones.

My understanding of the game is that it is simply not meant for 'standard' D&D campaigns. Rather, IH is meant for campaign settings in which magic is fundamentally different than it is in D&D -- viz. rarer and more dangerous.

The rules look very similar to those of Conan OGL. Just as you wouldn't use a standard D&D wizard in Conan, likewise you wouldn't use a standard D&D wizard in an IH campaign.

The purpose of IH is to run a fundamentally different -- i.e. non-D&D -- kind of campaign.

(At least this is my impression... )

Same here. I don't see why you would want to run standard D&D characters and IH characters in the same game. Certainly not without converting one type to the other system somehow.

 

[zen_hydra]

...odds are, if Mike and Monty don't have plans on releasing a class building toolkit that I will retro-engineer one.

I will then be happy to share my class decontructions / reconstructions with the community.

I plan to use IH for a mythic earth campaign, so I need to have classes that clearly emulate the mythic heroes of various cultures.

The rare magic item concept works great, as magic items in myth are always significant.

The IH combat system seems to more closely simulate how I envision Akilleus fighting than the way that D&D does it.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Just a minor thought -- to those who really want to blend their IH and D&D, and given IH's human focus, it would probably make the most sense to limit the core spellcasting classes to nonhumans, who are more innately magical than Iron Heroes' humans. Maybe elves can throw around cures and magic missles all day long, but their magic doesn't really work on humans?

I still think that IH is probably a dish best served without the core classes, though.

 

[Ashanderai]

My interest as far as mixing IH and AE, and maybe 3.5, is with the assumption that I will like the IH combat classes more than those in the other two systems, but will still prefer the magic system of AE. This is the way I am envisioning a possible, future campaign setting; not as low magic, but as rare magic that is not unreliable to those with the right bloodline, race, or cultural identity (as an analogy, think sort of like having aes sedai from the wheel of time novels). How do I reconcile the two (or three) systems?

Basically, I am tired of the same old combats, where we just stand around whaling on each other until someone gets the lucky die roll or the guy with the most hit points wins. I would like a system like what the combat in IH sounds like and still get to keep the magic system that I like.

 

[JohnSnow]

Okay, not a playtester here, just someone who's been obsessed with this game since he heard about it. And who has a pretty good memory and a lot of time on my hands...

That said, let me pull a few quotes from Mike Mearls on the game in general...

(Aside: this release was called Iron Lore until Malhavoc was threatened with a lawsuit by a certain video game company, so all of these early quotes have Mike using Iron Lore or IL rather than Iron Heroes or IH.)

The key design concept of Iron Lore is that you can use *any* D&D monster book with this game. 10th-level Iron Lore characters can fight demons, beholders, frost giants, and so forth, with the same lethality/resource curve as their D&D counterparts. While the PCs don't normally cast spells or carry a lot of magical gear, they're just as powerful as their D&D counterparts.

This has a variety of interesting changes for the system - Iron Lore combat tends to be much more tactically rich. Players have more options and class abilities that are more interactive than D&D ones.

As a consequence of the changes to the core d20 engine, you can now stat up an 18th-level NPC from any class in about 5 to 15 minutes, tops, once you're familiar with the system. I estimate that Iron Lore adventure prep takes about half, if not less, time than adventure prep for D&D. The time savings become even more pronounced at high levels. Yet, the game still supports all the cool, weird, fun action of D&D - trips to other planes, battles against dragons, demons, and other powerful monsters, and so forth.

On mixing in classes from D&D and/or AE.

1. Mixing classes - you need to do some conversion work, but it isn't much. Without magic items in the equation, there's a gap between an IL character and a D&D character. IL characters have additional features and abilities that close that gap. Thus, moving a character requires you to either give a character the IL features that close that gap (if you move to IL), or remove those features to put that gap back in place (if you move out of IL).

The spellcasting classes are the easiest to move. They don't require any changes to their class abilities, just some added capabilities that all IL characters have. Moving characters from IL to D&D requires a little more work. In some cases, it makes no sense to move a class from D&D to IL (and vice versa) because an IL class fills the same role as a D&D one. To draw an analogy, it doesn't make sense to convert the D&D fighter to d20 Star Wars, because the SW soldier class already fills that role. There's a few classes like that in IL.

On converting druids specifically:

If you open your PHB 3.5 to page 22, you'll see tables 3-1 and 3-2, the saving throw, base attack, and benefits (skills, feats) by level tables. Iron Lore uses different versions of these tables. You'd have to convert the druid to use the IL versions. Once you did that, especially with his spells in place, the druid would work fine in the game. The druid would also use a different HD, and he'd get a few class features that all IL characters receive.

The only other issue would be that, since there aren't any spellcaster-specific feats in IL, you'd have to let the player take feats from other sources.

On "balance" issues with high-level characters:

Iron Lore tends to push a lot of what I think of as maintenance stuff - saves, healing - off into the background. Your saves get really good without having to take feats. There's no healing magic, but you still recover hp's between fights. In essence, a lot of the passive, defensive abilities go up automatically as you level. Thus, characters tend to be rather tough nuts to crack without the players' putting a lot of resource into that end of character development.

That was very intentional, for the reasons you cite. Character mortality above level 10 is just too common due to a single bad roll or the failure to slap the right defensive spell on the party. Iron Lore chucks a lot of that stuff. Hopefully, if PCs fall in IL combat it's because they made bad decisions or were outfought, not because they rolled a 1 on a Fort save.

On the default role of magic items in Iron Heroes...

Magical items - the DM's guidebook has rules for these. They work a little like items from Call of Cthulhu.

Finally, in response to how Iron Heroes is different from just cutting the magic items out of D&D...

Playing Iron Lore, as opposed to running it, is a slightly different experience. IL characters have a lot more dynamic options in combat. If you just take away magic items, buff spells, and so on, you really cut down on the game management, character design, and decisions the PCs can make. There's really only a small slice of tactical decision you can make that have a big effect on the game.

IL gives the players new toys to play with. There's more decisions, and new points on the PC decision tree, to replace the loss of magic items and reliable magic.

To draw a more concrete example, with an attack a D&D fighter decides his target, if he wants to fight defensively, and if he wants to use feats like Power Attack or Combat Expertise (if he has them).

An IL character can decide to make a risky attack that reduces his Defense, a conservative one that enhances, a risky stunt for a big bonus. If he has the right feats, he might adopt a defensive stance, parry a few attacks, then unleash a deadly riposte. He could use his skills to find a weak point in a foe's armor.

In essence, IL replaces magic with new, interesting stuff. To draw on your example, D&D without magic is like an ice cream sundae with just the ice cream. IL is a like a D&D sundae with different toppings. You drop the magic, but you still have all the cool extras you want. They're just different. In many cases, a lot different.

At that point, the original thread mostly devolved into our speculations based on things Mike said there and dissecting all of his design diaries and the IH previews (from the Malhavoc site) in great detail.

So to address this question...

I want to know the appropriate power levels for token powered class abilities, so that I can make paladin style abilities that ramp up as the character gains levels (like the previewed Archer class).

If I have at least a rough set of tools, to act as a set of balancing scales, I can make a paladin with increasingly powerful holy smiting goodness as well as other nifty paladin flavored abilities that can function quite well in a low-magic environment.

I want to remake D&D and AE classes to function in a rare magic item environment.

As I understand, this is EXACTLY what you get from Iron Heroes as far as "conversions" go. That's not the focus of the book, but the conversion rules are there.

By the by, you can find the other thread here.

Does that help to answer some questions?

 

[zen_hydra]

Perhaps somewhere in all of the rules design stuff in Mastering Iron Heroes there will be lots of info and examples on class abilities. I am also curious about how the creatures in the Iron Hero Bestiary will be significantly different from other monstrous adversaries.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

As a side note, and please forgive me if this is totally gauche, Iron Heroes is now for sale in the White Wolf Online store.

For somewhere around half a C total you can even get it shipped next day mail.

 

[zen_hydra]

I thought we were looking at August 1 as the release date.