What are Minions anyway?

[Dr. Confoundo]

Ever seen 'Kill Bill vol 1'? Think about the scene where The Bride (Uma Thurman) enters O-Ren Ishii's restaurant, and has a huge fight with the Crazy 88s.

All of the Crazy 88s were minions, with the exception of Johnny Mo (their leader) and Gogo Yubari. The Bride cuts through the 88s like they are blades of grass.

 

[Lacyon]

There is a difference. A real minion has laughable HP but somehow is a competent enough fighter ho hit the higher level PC and has a for this level average defenses while a normal guy with much lower level does not have high HP and has also a very low attack and probably also low defenses.

Considering how HP is supposed to work in 4E this minion setup (no HP, average attack and defense) does not make sense, but as shown numerous times 4E doesn't care about immersion, logic and realism and instead endorses action movie logic.

Alternatively, you could pretend that the PCs are "Power Attacking" and using a similar ability that lets you sacrifice AC to cut damage per hit down (and, apparently, deny the enemy a crit chance, because all the minions I've seen do static damage).

Only in 4E instead of having to spend character-building currency like feats and class features, as well as having to do the math every round and adjust your attacks, damage, AC, and damage resistance each round, it's all built in to the system from the ground up to make it easier to play.

 

[Henry]

All of the Crazy 88s were minions, with the exception of Johnny Mo (their leader) and Gogo Yubari. The Bride cuts through the 88s like they are blades of grass.

...Really, really bloody and gore-soaked grass.

I've never had a problem with justifying minions, because they're there in every genre that D&D takes its inspirations from: Conan, Fafhrd & the Mouser, Comic books, action movies, you name it.

 

[DMShoe]

I'm thinking there's a "magic spreadsheet" somewhere in the WotC offices that has a computation for the average (or possibly even minimum) damage a standard character deals at X level with one hit, and minions of the same level are keyed to that amount.

mmm.. Magic Spreadsheet... reminds me that I need to update it, assuming such thing exists...

I'm sure that you'll be interested in some of the math behind minions, and how they ended up the way they are now. You can see some of the evolution in the available resources, though it doesn't tell the full story - a story that culminates in the MM entries. I'll have to see what I can reveal...

 

[VBMEW-01]

I've idealized minions as a pure encounter tool.

I don't feel that they represent 100% of a particular monster's skill. I do believe that they represent a portion of an "involved" battle that has to be defined somehow. Not necessarily fodder, they are merely losers in the individual monster v/s PC conflict, the unluckier of the two.

With this in mind, their function could be similar to that of traps or skill challenges that have been coupled into a combat encounter. My concept is more vague than most people would want, granted, but it gives me the feeling that I am building an encounter rather than a fight by placing obstacle-based resources against my players to fully flesh out a scene. In a massive battle, fights between individuals are rarely very long or noteworthy, usually one skillfully lucky thrust of the blade ends it without displaying the full capabilities of each combatant (see Braveheart, Gladiator, or Troy; I'm sure all those guys could fight pretty well).

You never hear of the exploits of Stormtrooper 985-6c, or the true limit of his abilities. That doesn't mean that he is without talent or accomplishment; they just aren't important to the story of the Jedi s' advance.

Bah! But I'm rambly and think I've lost my point or failed to illustrate it.

 

[Cyronax]

I read most of the posts, but at DDXP my group noticed several things about minions (and yes the DM would tell us which monsters were minions).

Anyway, minions did land hits on occasion (on the paladin and the warlock if I remember correctly). Also, the minions attempted tactics and like any good flunkie, they generally protected the BBEG of that encounter. Generally we took minions out with one hit, but I remember missing a few times against them with the various characters I played.

Granted that was a first level PC I was playing, but if 4e scales then the so-called 'power hierarchy works nicely, IMO. The big thing is for the DM to 1) not tell PCs which are the minions (all the time), 2) to try to keep the immersion/descriptive factor going.

A good way to do this is describe the scene before you place the minis and also to not use counters or the same flunkie minis for minions all the time. Switch it up so players a bit.

That might sound a bit trivial, but believe it often works and keeps the game flow from just being a tactical exercise with a grid and minis.

I'm a 4e skeptic, but this applies to 3.5 as well.

C.I.D.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

There is a difference. A real minion has laughable HP but somehow is a competent enough fighter ho hit the higher level PC and has a for this level average defenses while a normal guy with much lower level does not have high HP and has also a very low attack and probably also low defenses.

Considering how HP is supposed to work in 4E this minion setup (no HP, average attack and defense) does not make sense, but as shown numerous times 4E doesn't care about immersion, logic and realism and instead endorses action movie logic.

Haha, I was hoping no one would see that flaw in my argument

Ok, despite that, the fact that minions pose a real threat to the PCs but still have laughable hp isn't really all that illogical.

In general, it's a little easier to attack than defend. So, minions are good enough to be able to attack the heroes somewhat effectively, but aren't good enough to defend themselves from the inevitable counterattacks. That's not to say that minions are automatically hit, but if a PC throws a good attack, the minion doesn't really stand a chance. This works just as well in the reverse - as awesome as the PCs are, they're not invincible, and minions are able to get a couple blows past the defenses (or close enough to wear them down, or whatever works for how you think of hp) IF given the chance. Just because you can take someone down in one hit doesn't mean that 12 of them ganging up on you should be no sweat.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

This is a little silly.

If we took out the mentions Minion, Elite, Solo, Brute, Skirmisher etc. as well as the level of the monsters, do you know what we'd have? The AD&D monster compendium. And no one would be wondering the implications of a minion. They'd just say: "Oh, look, that monster is only worth 25XP and is really weak. Let's put a boat load of them for one encounter, it'll be fun."

And what if some ultragrognard still playing AD&D and suffering from Monica Geller syndrome decided to label each monsters and formed a minions category formed of things like 1 HD goblin and Orcs? Would it create the same type of debate even though we managed to survive the 80s without knowing that a kobold was a minion?

Thematically, minions can be anything. Mob of peasant, throngs of vampire spawn, royal guards... the only common link is that there is likely to be tons of them attacking at the same time.

Mechanically, minions are low HP creature that you can swamp the PC in. And these minions have always existed in every iteration of D&D.

There is only two novelty about them, and I love it : First of all, now some of them have been designed to be a challenge for PC above level 3. Secondly, and this is a guess based on the few mionions revealed so far, they all have some sort of mob bonus that makes extra dangerous until you have thinned them out.

For example, I just love how the Vampire spawn are like pirahnas. Consider this; first column is the number of spawn, second is the maximum damage they can do to the same PC they are surrounding, third is the same against a bloodied PC. I find it just hilarious and thrilling. I'm eager to use them and watch the expression of the players as they realize the implications. Weeee.

1 3 5
2 12 20
3 27 45
4 48 80
5 75 125
6 108 180
7 147 245
8 192 320

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Thee is only two novelty about them, and I love it : First of all, now some of them have been designed to be a challenge for PC above level 3. Secondly, and this is a guess based on the few mionions revealed so far, they all have some sort of mob bonus that makes extra dangerous until you have thinned them out.

For example, I just love how the Vampire spawn are like pirahnas. Consider this; first column is the number of spawn, second is the maximum damage they can do to the same PC they are surrounding, third is the same against a bloodied PC. I find it just hilarious and thrilling. I'm eager to use them and watch the expression of the players as they realize the implications. Weeee.

1 3 5
2 12 20
3 27 45
4 48 80
5 75 125
6 108 180
7 147 245
8 192 320

Yes, I like the vampire spawn quite a bit myself. Just because they can't stand up to punishment doesn't mean they can't tear you to shreds if you ignore them.

Edit: Imagine a swarm of 20 vampire spawn. That would pretty much require powers like cleave or AoE wizardness to survive without massive healing being handed out. I like! (probably because I'm on the DM's side of the screen )

 

[hong]

There is a difference. A real minion has laughable HP but somehow is a competent enough fighter ho hit the higher level PC and has a for this level average defenses while a normal guy with much lower level does not have high HP and has also a very low attack and probably also low defenses.

Considering how HP is supposed to work in 4E this minion setup (no HP, average attack and defense) does not make sense, but as shown numerous times 4E doesn't care about immersion, logic and realism and instead endorses action movie logic.

Clearly, Derren has been playing D&D too long.

In the real world, offense > defense. It's very easy to point a gun and shoot, but it's very hard to survive being shot in the head. Action movie logic mitigates or reverses this trend for the heroes, so that they can go through multiple fights without having their brains scattered over the floor. Minions are thus perfectly realistic.