What are the 'assets' of a Thieves Guild?

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord Pendragon, though I agree with you in some ways I have to comment that the thieves guild will also be involved in soem legal activities, just like the modern mafia. You need front businesses and you need to have your name on businesses to justify all your money, or you just attract attention.

Why? A D&D criminal doesn't have to worry about bank account statements, computerized money tracing, the IRS, etc. We're talking about a gold-based economy, with no records of earnings other than personal records. A master criminal can simply convert his fortune into diamonds and nobody would ever know about it until he spent it, and even then the only people who'd know about it would be the people whom he purchased services from--people who won't have to file any reports on the transaction and might not even know his real name. He could buy a title, etc.

The reason front businesses are necessary to the mafia is because of the degree of information exchange and documentation in the modern era. For a medieval criminal, there's no need for front businesses at all. A thieves' guild might own a tavern or some such as a base of operations and safe house, but not for the same reasons the modern mafia would. It just wouldn't be needed.

 

[2d6]

Why? A D&D criminal doesn't have to worry about bank account statements, computerized money tracing, the IRS, etc. We're talking about a gold-based economy, with no records of earnings other than personal records. A master criminal can simply convert his fortune into diamonds and nobody would ever know about it until he spent it, and even then the only people who'd know about it would be the people whom he purchased services from--people who won't have to file any reports on the transaction and might not even know his real name. He could buy a title, etc.

The reason front businesses are necessary to the mafia is because of the degree of information exchange and documentation in the modern era. For a medieval criminal, there's no need for front businesses at all. A thieves' guild might own a tavern or some such as a base of operations and safe house, but not for the same reasons the modern mafia would. It just wouldn't be needed.

I can think of one reason. If I were a D&D thief there is a good chance that much of the loot that I gain through my activities isn't coin, but more likely items both magical and mundane. A thieves guild is going to need a way of converting valuable good into something that doesn't attract attention and depending on the size of the city, may need to send those good to another city in order to sell them.

 

[SylverFlame]

I'm thinking in somewhat the same way as 2d6, but not quite. You see, as you're stealing those items, the fence can give you the money, however, since you are the guild you likely are the fence. In which case you have to get the items out of the city. You aren't gonna sell it to some merchant in the city where the crime took place, so you crate it up and ship it out. This is where the business comes in. Trading Company so you can easily move items, and the occasional person, that you want to get out of the city. A single person gets mugged and raises suspicions when they show up in town looking for buyers. However no one questions when a merchant caravan pulls into town and the merchants set up meetings with the nobles, who, as they are nobles, deserve first dibs on all merchandise, legal or otherwise.

It's all about deception, and besides, when you're massively rich, don't own a business, don't have noble ties, or any other means of having the money, that money garners attention. The front explains how you live high on the hog.

EDIT: Also, if you have smugglers, slavers, or whatever other less then legal activities, you want a piece of the pie. Also, things like smugglers were often under the guise of a legitimate company, they just had tricks of sneaking their illegal cargo through customs.

 

[2d6]

BAH! double post

 

[2d6]

I'm thinking in somewhat the same way as 2d6, but not quite. You see, as you're stealing those items, the fence can give you the money, however, since you are the guild you likely are the fence. In which case you have to get the items out of the city. You aren't gonna sell it to some merchant in the city where the crime took place, so you crate it up and ship it out. This is where the business comes in. Trading Company so you can easily move items, and the occasional person, that you want to get out of the city. A single person gets mugged and raises suspicions when they show up in town looking for buyers. However no one questions when a merchant caravan pulls into town and the merchants set up meetings with the nobles, who, as they are nobles, deserve first dibs on all merchandise, legal or otherwise.

It's all about deception, and besides, when you're massively rich, don't own a business, don't have noble ties, or any other means of having the money, that money garners attention. The front explains how you live high on the hog.

EDIT: Also, if you have smugglers, slavers, or whatever other less then legal activities, you want a piece of the pie. Also, things like smugglers were often under the guise of a legitimate company, they just had tricks of sneaking their illegal cargo through customs.

We're on the same page, I assumed no thieves guild would go to an outside/independant fence. Having business assets (either by owning them or being allied with them) that allow the guild to handle getting rid of that stuff only makes sense.

 

[The Blue Elf]

Gold, Jewls,Items, depends on how good the Guild is, and its members also leadership.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm thinking in somewhat the same way as 2d6, but not quite. You see, as you're stealing those items, the fence can give you the money, however, since you are the guild you likely are the fence. In which case you have to get the items out of the city.

True.

You aren't gonna sell it to some merchant in the city where the crime took place, so you crate it up and ship it out.

Not sure about this one. You just need to sell the items to an unscrupulous merchant leaving the city. And even then, I think you're overestimating the ability of the authorities to successfully identify stolen loot. Besides heirloom jewelry or famous paintings, a lot of the loot from thieving will be easily sold within the same city where it was stolen. That which isn't, you sell to a merchant leaving the city.

This is where the business comes in. Trading Company so you can easily move items, and the occasional person, that you want to get out of the city.

It's too much work for too little payoff. I just can't see a thieves' guild starting up a legitimate trading company to cover smuggling. Remember that we're talking about an era where unregistered ships can (and did) dock on uninhabited beaches to load/unload whatever they wanted. A thieves' guild might very well be into smuggling, but there's no need to conceal it under the guise of a trading company, and a lot of added work as an incentive not to.

A single person gets mugged and raises suspicions when they show up in town looking for buyers.

Raises suspicions from whom? How? You can't assume a modern police force, with a theft department and informants on the street letting them know that there's a lot of hot merchandise coming into the city. Firstly, they wouldn't know it was hot, and secondly you're probably dealing with a city watch rather than a police force, whose duties are more along the lines of "break up fights, cart away any bodies" than "investigate the case of the missing heirloom."

and besides, when you're massively rich, don't own a business, don't have noble ties, or any other means of having the money, that money garners attention. The front explains how you live high on the hog.

While also fictional, consider the Count of Monte Cristo. He came into vast wealth, bought himself a title to an uninhabited island, and nobody questioned where his money came from at all. And this was during a time period later and (arguably) more sophisticated than the usual D&D era. In a medieval setting, few people care about where money comes from, and those that do have no way of finding out the truth.

Now consider a D&D world, where adventurers come across hoardes of dragon gold every once in a while. How are you going to prove that Bill the Thief is rich because he's a criminal, and that he didn't happen across a dead dragon's secret stache?

EDIT: Also, if you have smugglers, slavers, or whatever other less then legal activities, you want a piece of the pie. Also, things like smugglers were often under the guise of a legitimate company, they just had tricks of sneaking their illegal cargo through customs.

You get your piece of the pie, because the smugglers, slavers, etc. work for you. You don't need to throw a front company over it to get your cut. And again, smugglers were often not under the guise of a legitimate company. It was too much work. Instead, they dropped anchor at hidden coves and delivered their cargo somewhere other than the Royal Port. Why go through all the trouble of fooling the Royal Factor at the port when you can simply choose to drop off your cargo somewhere else?

 

[Buttercup]

A single person gets mugged and raises suspicions when they show up in town looking for buyers.

That depends what has been stolen. I would think that guild muggers and cutpurses would be trained *not* to take unique items. Take all the coins and gemstones you want, supplemented by lace, silk and velvet clothing that can be cut apart and sold for pure profit. There was a booming market for used yard goods, because plenty of genteel folk couldn't afford new. Then too, prostitutes wanted to look fancy, but as cheaply as possible.

Magic items would be big trouble, unless they were minor and common, like everburning torches and potions of Cure Light Wounds.

 

[Tonguez]

These ideas are wonderful - keep em coming

The set up in my mind is to have Silas Pymm (the PC) be a Pawnbroker and Fence who is also head of a criminal organisation. The Pawnbrokers is the main front for the Fencing of stolen goods (its in the old run down part of the city, the new city having taken over as the 'respectable' part of town)

He also does burglary-to-order, to acquire unique items which are smuggled out to the buyer.

So far thats the extent of planning I've got to, these ideas are going to help expand his operations and get Silas into the big time (he will be bidding for a Seat on the Merchants Council - so will need a bit more 'influence').
Looking into Loansharking, protection rackets and Information Brokerage (thinking Bard cohort disguised as Beggar).

 

[SylverFlame]

The trading company does not cost too much. You already have the ships, so why not make even more money. The key to the ideas is greed. If you just wanted to commit a few crimes and live well, you'd be independant. Guilds are about making scads of money. They are driven by greed. As such, you have to make every gold piece make you at least two more. That is why trading companies. You aren't gonna send a whole boat for a few crates, so you make more money by hauling legit cargo. Same as modern cargo ships carry a whole bunch of different commodities. A big ship is cheaper to run than a horde of little ones, so jam the thing full.

The other reason you don't want to sell items in the same town, or to an unscrupulous merchant is two fold. One, if I'm a guild leader, I'm going to be a bit paranoid. As such, the person moving my stuff is gonna be someone I have dirt on, or a family to hold in ransom. Therefore, I'm not using just some merchant, I'm using one I have in my pocket, besides, middle-manning doesn't make me as much money as going straight to the source (again with the greed).

Reason two, an item in the same town garners attention. With the nobles hob-nobbing together, one is gonna notice when their whatever is in a friend's trophy case. Bad for me, as it increases my chances of being caught (side note: Guild leaders ALWAYS keep a number of patsies lying around, especially those that don't belong to the guild or know what the heck is going on, that or just charm them). Also, magical means can outline a lot on an item. Therefore do not steal highly rare or special items. Too hard to move (only a few people want them) and they tend to be noticed. Go for the quick sells.

Okay, now, here's a few dirty tricks for making those items disappear without a fence. If an item is non-magical and is a precious metal, it is often worth it to just melt it down. You lose money, but it's safer to pawn off a lump of silver than a candle-abra. Or, if you have your hands on a few coin minters, just make the local coin and you can spread your loot that way.

Now then, here is one straight out of history. It's called shaving. What you do is this. We'll say the country you're in is using precious metal (gold, silver, etc) for coins. What you do is take a sharp tool and shave the edge of the coin. This peels off small parts of the metal, which can be melted down and minted into more coins. Becareful, do this too often and you notice the coin getting smaller and you can feel it weighs less. Coins value was based on weight and purity. The problem with this is that it tends to only work on a large scale, otherwise you take too long to make it worth it. For DMs wishing to make it harder, pick an appropriate skill and make a check. I suggest Craft, with its own sub-group for shaving. Give synergy bonus for people who work with precious metals or work at jobs where exactness matters (like shaving a person's face).

That's it for this one. PLEASE don't ask how I know this stuff.