What are the characteristics of an "olde school game"?

Mythmere1 said:
Essay Time!
That was pretty interesting!

Between 1e and 3e, however, there was a decade of a different theory of the game. It started in the late 1e period, but blossomed with 2e (and was rife in the 2e rulebooks). This theory will sound alien to most 3e players, but the idea was that the character was NOT SUPPOSED TO DIE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Indeed, in Dragonlance modules, the "plot" could be derailed by the death of characters who played a role in the story. The focus was on roleplaying far over and above the live-or-die focus of 1e and 3e. Worlds needed to be rich in detail, for exploring these fascinating places tended to replace the brutal us-against-them attitude of 1e/3e, whose players expect combat at any moment. DMs who started gaming in the 2e period often have traces of this conventional sidom embedded in their methods; the idea was promulgated in Dragon, in the rulebooks, and everywhere. This generation of DMs was taught heavy-duty roleplaying and player-backstory rather than "carve out your destiny from nothing in a world that operates without your help or interaction."
This is really interesting. I started gaming with 2E, and my experience is pretty much the opposite.

In 2E, we died left and right, felt a sense of accomplishment if we got to 5th level, and just made another character if we didn't.

In 3E... well, we still die left and right, but we get raised if we can afford it, we works something out with the DM if we can't, and we get much more invested in a given character.

5) Suck up their cash (they'll have extra since they can't buy magic items) with training costs, cost of riotous living, etc. 1e created a system in which you lived really high for a while, then faced abject poverty until you went out again. It felt adventurous - you've sort of got to see that in operation, I admit.
A semi-related idea I had, for keeping the 3E CR/level/equipment balances more or less intact, while creating that Conan atmosphere where you whore and drink for a week, then almost starve the next: you could just say that while there's magic items, there simply isn't a market for them. If you're an adventurer, you can hope to find a +1 flaming burst sword, but there's no-one to sell it to, unless you're willing to have it hideously undervalued. So even people with +1 flaming burst swords might occasionally find themselves chopping wood for food and lodging, since you cannot eat magic swords. Allow "dismantling" existing magic items for components, and occasionally give magic item components as treasure ("... so you killed the red dragon. You can use his tongue to make 20,000 gp worth of magic items connected to fire." That way you could keep equipment mostly the same, while divorcing it from actual monetary wealth. And you might even get most of the fun of a shopping trip: discussing how to spend the 20,000 virtual gp in dragon tongue should look very similar to discussing what to do with actual 20,000 gp in gold coins.

7) Don't allow wizards to buy spells except for outrageous cash (suck up the cash). Wizards should have fairly limited repertoires and be forced to use them creatively rather than always having the exactly right spell for the occasion available.
This also implies: allow spells to be used creatively. They don't just do the exact things spelled out in the PHB, they can do anything it would make sense that the effect described can do. Use web to pinpoint invisible creatures (you see where the strands stick), use shocking grasp at range through water, use 3.0-style command (Clr 1) where you can issue any one word command rather than the 3.5 pick-one-from-list version.

14) Keep everything local. Avoid planet-spanning evil and planet-spanning organizations of do-gooders. Avoid making magic into a substitute for technology. Great wizards might occasionally communicate through crystal balls and such, but it has no effect on the world. They don't hire themselves out to barons for use as a telephone. Since they're not part of a worldwide force for good, they don't even pick up the wiz-o-phone for their own purposes. Eberron is thus sort of the opposite of old school, and Forgotten Realms is pretty close. If you use the Realms, take out the Harpers.
Forgotten Realms is pretty much the poster child for planet-spanning evil and (to a lesser extend) planet-spanning do-gooders, isn't it?

I agree Eberron isn't old school what with its industrial magic schtick, but IMO Forgotten Realms is exactly the kind of world you seemed to associate with non-old-school feel: richly detailed, story-heavy, a world where villains out for world domination are more common than 2d4 gibbering mouthers wandering through the woods.

Use place names from Arabia, Turkey, and Greece, mixed with a few totally inapposite European names like "Hrothgar" or "Lord Melchik."
Way cool. :cool:

Oh - forget about a G rating. There are prostitutes and slaves,
... with blackjack and hookers! In fact, forget the blackjack! :D
 

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Mythmere1 said:
MY GUIDE TO MAKING AN OLD SCHOOL 3E CAMPAIGN
1) Restrict classes to the ones in the core books and eliminate the prestige classes.

2) Don't allow purchase of magic items

3) De-emphasize the experience gained for combat and offset it with experience for getting gold. Why? Because giving xp only for killing stuff means you don't win by eluding combat in a creative way. The reward system for players, the incentives, become broader and promote a wider range of "solutions" to things.

4) CONSIDER giving out xp bonuses for use of thieving skills, great combat tactics, etc. This in and of itself is NOT AT ALL like 1e, and in the hands of an average DM will backfire badly. What it achieves, though, is the result that characters level at different times, not all together. Sometimes one character gets to be the star, sometimes another. This is so big a risk for so small an old-school effect that I don't recommend it. However, that "I'm the star until you level up" was a cool part of 1e gaming.

5) Suck up their cash (they'll have extra since they can't buy magic items) with training costs, cost of riotous living, etc. 1e created a system in which you lived really high for a while, then faced abject poverty until you went out again. It felt adventurous - you've sort of got to see that in operation, I admit.

6) Cut down the number of cleric spells available. You might even forbid trading out your spells for cure spells ... I kind of like that development, though. Maybe limit it to one spell that can be traded out...I don't know. Something to keep the cleric's firepower in check. Cut out the offensive cleric spells.

7) Don't allow wizards to buy spells except for outrageous cash (suck up the cash). Wizards should have fairly limited repertoires and be forced to use them creatively rather than always having the exactly right spell for the occasion available.

8) Look at Wilderlands of High Fantasy as the campaign if you don't want to make your own. I've seen it, it's very sword-and-sorcery.

9) Make them explore hex by hex to find places, making a map as they go.

10) Require dungeon mapping, and make them tell you right-turn, left-turn, etc. to get out of the dungeon. Make this worthwhile with teleports and lots of things that can misdirect. This heightens the sense of exploring. Yes, it slows things down.

11) Remember that there are doors that they just can't open, things they just can't identify, magic beyond the whisper of a pattern represented by the text. MOST of magic is beyond human kind.

12) slow down level advancement a bit, so that there are more combats and experiences between levels. They'll feel like they earned it and have more accomplishments under their belts by the time they reach high levels. In the current system, you can be a baron after a much smaller series of challenges than in old-school gaming. It heightens the sense of accomplishment.

13) Screw realism, screw ecology, screw explanations, screw economies, screw physics. The explanation is out there for why an ogre is wandering the city without molesting anyone until he sees the party. The explanation isn't what the game's about. Killing an ogre in a cool city brawl is what the game's about. If they ask why, tell them to figure it out. They may try. Their line of inquiriy will give you good ideas.

14) Keep everything local. Avoid planet-spanning evil and planet-spanning organizations of do-gooders. Avoid making magic into a substitute for technology. Great wizards might occasionally communicate through crystal balls and such, but it has no effect on the world. They don't hire themselves out to barons for use as a telephone. Since they're not part of a worldwide force for good, they don't even pick up the wiz-o-phone for their own purposes. Eberron is thus sort of the opposite of old school, and Forgotten Realms is pretty close. If you use the Realms, take out the Harpers.

15) Don't put the characters in constant or reliable contact with super-NPCs like Elminster or Bigby. Don't set up a situation where that NPC might ever, ever, ever, pull the character's bacon out of the fire. It's not a game of saving bacon; it's a game of keeping your bacon ... um ... raw, I guess. That analogy went to hell fast. I would eliminate Elminster from the Realms. Even Bigby only has local power -- some troops, a dragon, etc.

Finally, some sword and sorcery tips about the game world's flavor. You've already changed it significantly by not allowing purchase of magic items, potions, scrolls. Quadruple the cost in gold of creating these, too. Don't put your characters in the business of being manufacturers - it's an adventure game, for cryin' out loud.

Use place names from Arabia, Turkey, and Greece, mixed with a few totally inapposite European names like "Hrothgar" or "Lord Melchik." Use tons of traps and don't give experience for beating them. I said keep things local - and people have no idea what's within 10 miles of their villages. Oh - forget about a G rating. There are prostitutes and slaves, and the good characters shouldn't be incentivized by their alignments to attack "legal" slavers. Galley slaves and slave markets somehow add a lot to the atmosphere; plus, it lets you capture the characters if they'd otherwise die, if you want to give them that loophole once in a while.

Okay I'm done. Thanks to the three people who actually bother to read all the way through.
Great tips!

Some things that have worked well in my "old-school" style campaigns:
1. Minimize your combat rules, it speeds up combats and frees up time for exploration, roleplay, etc. Do this by drastically reducing AoO's, roll group initiatives, and simplify stuff like grappling (limiting AoO's helps this right off the bat). Taking out individual initiative made my combats fly by, I had my players sit clockwise around the table from me arranged by fighter, stealth, and spellcaster. Fighters could then charge right in and attack, while rogue types planned their flanks or hides, while spellthrowers could look up their spell's effects before their turn rather than during. My monsters already attacked as a group, so no big change for me. I only used AoO's for drastically stupid mistakes. Taking them out encouraged the party to use the fun "cinematic" combat rules without bogging down play.
2. Adjust your xp requirements, there's a good chart in the Wilderlands Player's Guide, about twice what's in the PHB is good. Only give out xp at the very end of adventures or trips. Require training and training costs to level. There are rules for this in the DMG. Make your campaign world's level range more like this: low 1-4, mid 4-8, high 8-12. Levelling up every week in the middle of the dungeon until you reach your 20th lvl "build" is the very antithesis of old-school. Taking time you get to know your 1st level characters every ability or spell is very old-school. Feeling like you lived long enough to get "fireball" is very old-school.
3. If you use pre-made adventures, avoid ones with heavy stories or built in "campaign arcs". The players should be developing the story through their own goals and motivations, not following some prefab grand design. DM's, the players are not your pawns or puppets, acting out your well-crafted plays as you railroad them along your desired course. Players, the DM is not your dancing monkey, there to amuse you while you chat amiably about football and motorcycles until forced to react, safe in the knowledge that anything thrown in your way is the proper "EL" and therefore can't hurt you too much. DM's should add in a monster or two to premade adventures that are far above the "appropriate" CR for their level, watch what happens, they'll never get complacent again! ;)
 


Grimstaff said:
DM's should add in a monster or two to premade adventures that are far above the "appropriate" CR for their level, watch what happens, they'll never get complacent again! ;)
You mean do exactly what the 3.5 DMG recommends then?
 



Mythmere1 said:
Essay Time!
<snip>
Awesome!

13) Screw realism, screw ecology, screw explanations, screw economies, screw physics.
A significant point. On the other hand, I would agree that early 1e and OD&D had its own analogy of ecology, which I call thematic appropriateness. This means that instead of encounters making strict biological, social, etc. sense, they make sense in the context of a "dream-world" or such.

This is a bit out there, but here is a concrete example: in Tegel Manor, a huge haunted house released by Judges Guild, you get to find a place called "The Nursery". In an ecological dungeon, it would contain childrens' toys, clothes, beds, etc. In Tegel, it contains a demon doll, a "teddy bear with teeth" and animated tin soldiers guarding a cache of marbles -- which are in fact rubies and emeralds. So the encounter isn't entirely logical in the strict sense (Tegel Manor really isn't), but there is an indirect association with a nursery. It is that extra step from real to surreal that makes it old school.

Of course, this is just one type of old school. There are more -- from the highly improbable but cool ("I put in a gravity well because gravity wells are AWESOME.") to the mundane and boring ("I put in yet another 12 orcs playing dice in a 10'X10' room, hi-ho."). And sometimes things are used so out of context that they lose their original meaning and become a D&Dism, or their own thing. A lot of Tolkien-related content is like this.

***

Also, good point on plane-hopping. Getting sucked into hostile and improbable otherworlds is a staple of old school D&D. :D
 

Some "old school" flavor from my personal experience:

1. Puzzles/Traps that existed only to be solved, not actually protect anything.
2. Rooms shaped like strange things, visible on graph paper when mapped out correctly.
3. Describing everything and making the players draw it out.
4. Monsters in one room ignoring ten minutes of combat in the next room.
5. Bringing your First Level Thief along with the 12th level party because ALL OF YOUR OTHER CHARACTERS HAD DIED.
6. Meeting everyone in the tavern and going directly to the "dungeon."
7. A total absence of bathrooms/privies in every dungeon.
8. In an eight-hour session with ten players, at least one character would die.
9. Girdle of Strength +8, also a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. Yes, the player wore it constantly.
10. Nothing good ever happens in a room full of statues.
 


TarionzCousin said:
5. Bringing your First Level Thief along with the 12th level party because ALL OF YOUR OTHER CHARACTERS HAD DIED.

When I think old school, I think "half your PCs will die by the end of the adventure. You better get more, because half your PCs will die next adventure."

When we hit 4th level our many, many many thieves had all died. Rather than send in a 1st level thief, we made 26 thieves (names like A-1, B-52, CO2, D-day...) and sent them against the Keep on the Borderlands (the Keep, not the Caves) in what I continue to call the Darwinian Crime Spree! Each thief pulls a caper (do you have any idea how much treasure is in the Keep?!?) until all but one is caught. The last man standing joins the party!

That's why our thief's name was Water... H2O survived!

PS
 

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