What are your "Problem Spells"?

[Trainz]

Well, ignoring the fact that a General of Hell should be fairly powerful on it's face, is the fact that, by itself, Blasphemy isn't that big of a deal. If the party is 18th level or above (and they better be, if they're going to go toe to toe with a Balor), then the worst thing that will happen is that they will be dazed. A Balor who constantly dazes his enemies isn't taking any attacks himself, so it's a standoff.

I did mention a Balor and a Goblin before right ?

*checks*

Yup, I did.

Further, it assumes other things that are required, such as all the targets being in a 40 ft. burst range

Which is most of the time in a typical dungeon

all of them either lacking or failing their spell resistance rolls

I already adressed that :"unless the PC's know that there is a Balor behind door number 2, and the Balor wins Init., then they won't have time to cast those... "

and no one being able to get off a silence spell or better yet, have a bard to countersong the spell.

Once again, it's a coin toss if they can win init v.s. the Balor: I will not risk my campaign on a coin toss.

When I've seen what 20th level characters are capable of, the Balor seems strong, but not unbelievably so. He's an appropriate challenge for 20th level characters.

Given average conditions, he will TPK a 20th level party. OTOH, he will be a cakewalk for a 21th level party.

The mechanic of the Blasphemy is wrong, very clumsy to use for a DM if some critters have it at will. It is way above the power of it's opposing spell, Holy Word, who replaces Dazed (Not being able to do anything), with Deaf (-2 init, 20 % misscast). Surely you can't deny that.

I hate for a DM to go :"OK, do some of my players have magic res ? No ? Oh well, I won't use the Balor then...".

 

[jasamcarl]

I did mention a Balor and a Goblin before right ?

*checks*

Yup, I did.


Which is most of the time in a typical dungeon



I already adressed that :"unless the PC's know that there is a Balor behind door number 2, and the Balor wins Init., then they won't have time to cast those... "


Once again, it's a coin toss if they can win init v.s. the Balor: I will not risk my campaign on a coin toss.


Given average conditions, he will TPK a 20th level party. OTOH, he will be a cakewalk for a 21th level party.

The mechanic of the Blasphemy is wrong, very clumsy to use for a DM if some critters have it at will. It is way above the power of it's opposing spell, Holy Word, who replaces Dazed (Not being able to do anything), with Deaf (-2 init, 20 % misscast). Surely you can't deny that.

I hate for a DM to go :"OK, do some of my players have magic res ? No ? Oh well, I won't use the Balor then...".

A 20th level cleric will usually use only spells of 6th level and up in combat. Given this, and the 20 minute duration of spell resistance, as well as the dungeon setting, i think its perfectly feasable for every member of the party to have it. Given that, there is a 3% chance that any given use of blasphemy will result in a complete party daze. I think it would be relativly easy for a party to face four balors in a day and survive, given True Res, etc.

 

[Numion]

Indeed. But unless the Balor is suicidal, that is exactly what he will do given the current parameters in the MM.

You know Thanee, I just love 3.5, but why in the nine hells didn't they take care of that. It is so obvious. It infuriates me.

My thoughts too.

Spoiler for Bastion of Broken Souls:

Spoiler

At some point three balors attack the party .. so, I decided that one uses plasbhemy and the two others beat. That was fun

.

 

[ForceUser]

Trainz:

At the end of the day, I stand by the following assertion: a balor with blasphemy at will is powerful but not game-breaking. Any group for which this monster (and his flunkies!) is CR-appropriate has ways within ways of dealing with him and his powers, regardless of the situation. High-level characters have great depth of resources to call upon. An "at will" ability, while nice, isn't a game-breaker when one considers that the average D&D combat lasts for only a few rounds. If the balor is lucky, he'll probably be able to line up a single "sweet spot" blasphemy. Even with a helper, he's not going to finish off an entire player group. PCs are very resilient.

 

[Pants]

For us time stop isn't a big problem, it requires good use of the Delay Spell feat or just buffs, so we haven't seen any gross abuses.

Disjunction is very powerful, but seldomly used: Both the PCs and the NPCs relying heavily on their gear, and being greedy, want more!

I've actually presented my players with an ultimatum on Disjunction: When they start using it, then the NPC's will start using it against them. The party mage agreed to this and thought it was a great idea. Besides, if I need to, there's other ways to destroy their stuff.

As for bad spells, any divination spell can be potentially bad. Raise Deads are often annoying. Translocation spells can really change the way the game is played, but if you cripple Divinations they might not be much of problem anymore (gets rid of the Scry-Teleport-Nuke-Teleport tactic).

For Raise Dead spells, I'd get rid of both Ressurection spells as Raise Dead still can't bring back those killed with Death Effects.

Wish and Limited Wish should probably go as well.

 

[Pants]

What happens if you cast holy-word each round ? You're deafened. Woopty-doo.

You can banish the Balor back to the Abyss. There, fight's over.

 

[jasamcarl]

I've actually presented my players with an ultimatum on Disjunction: When they start using it, then the NPC's will start using it against them. The party mage agreed to this and thought it was a great idea. Besides, if I need to, there's other ways to destroy their stuff.

As for bad spells, any divination spell can be potentially bad. Raise Deads are often annoying. Translocation spells can really change the way the game is played, but if you cripple Divinations they might not be much of problem anymore (gets rid of the Scry-Teleport-Nuke-Teleport tactic).

For Raise Dead spells, I'd get rid of both Ressurection spells as Raise Dead still can't bring back those killed with Death Effects.

Wish and Limited Wish should probably go as well.

Eh, i think a better way of handling something like this would be to create plot challenges that require the use of divinations and teleports. Being highlevel is suppossed to change the nature of the game. Imposing low-level plots on high-level character really does make the game dull for the players and kinda cheapens their accomplishments. Monte Cook has a pretty good article on how to do a good high-level adventure.

 

[Pants]

Eh, i think a better way of handling something like this would be to create plot challenges that require the use of divinations and teleports. Being highlevel is suppossed to change the nature of the game. Imposing low-level plots on high-level character really does make the game dull for the players and kinda cheapens their accomplishments. Monte Cook has a pretty good article on how to do a good high-level adventure.

Since I run a decidedly High Magic Game, I have no problem with them. But for a more grim n' gritty setting, they may pose a problem. Although, now that Scry is more manageable, it might not be as big of a problem as before though.

DM: Make your Scry check.
PC: I have one of his rings and 12 ranks in the skill, there's no way I can fail!
DM: Ugh....

 

[Norfleet]

The worst spell IME is Blasphemy.
1- If the party is above 20th level, then the spell is totally useless and the Balor becomes a more manageable encounter.

Unless the party is EVIL. Evil people are gloriously unaffected by Blasphemy. It's good to be bad.

 

[green slime]

I did mention a Balor and a Goblin before right ?

*checks*

Yup, I did.

That Goblin is NEVER going to hit an 18th level PC... Sorry it doesn't work.

The Balor's spell-like abilities are at Caster Level 20, which means that:
10HD or lower creatures are killed, paralyzed, weakened and dazed,
11-15HD creatures are paralyzed, weakened and dazed
16-19HD are weakened and dazed.

The dazed creatures defend themselves normally, even though they can take no actions for one round.

Also, the use of this by a balor in the Abyss banishes the heroes to their home plane. Hardly instant death.

And if you are still plodding through dungeons at level 20... instead of facing off monsters in more fantastic locations, well... If it is the goal of the DM to TPK the party, he can always succeed. So if he squeezes 3 balor into a 20x20 feet room at the end of a long corridor in a dungeon otherwise inhabited by goblins, I guess it is time to roll up new PCs...

Balor should never, ever be random encounters that just happen as the party passes on by, some form of foreshadowing should be taking place. Given that, a well equipped PC party that properly utilizes its abilities should be able to take one on, but not without some loss.