What are your thoughts on TTRPGs with non-standard dice?

[Thomas Shey]

I suspect if we look at the actual examples of this they will be a lot more specific and less general than you're suggesting.

I.e. someone will be moaning about a game having a D&D-like class and level system in one thread, and then suggesting that a game should use an HP system like D&D instead of an more elaborate death-spiral-style damage system in another. I very much doubt anyone is saying "Class and level sux" in one thread and then "Class and level rules" in another unless they are true agent of chaos!

Well, it doesn't help that some people are simultaneously critical of D&D, but really vague about what parts they don't like and whether its a generic dislike or a contextual one. I try mostly not to discuss my general dislike of D&D proper (and to a less degree of its kin) because I'd have to unpack what specifics I dislike and to what degree and that seems excessively negative, but at least if I'm going to diss D&D, I won't do so in the broad and casual way I see some do (I can't say I did this many decades ago when I first decided it wasn't my gig but A) I've come to tolerate some elements more than I did then, and B) I was young and even more cantankerous than I am now).

 

[Staffan]

Yep, and one of those purposes is a barrier to entry. Sure, they can serve a game mechanic purpose, but that's a choice and as you pointed out, can be handled by other resolution mechanics that don't have the barrier to entry.

But that's the thing: that purpose (two-dimensional resolution) can't be served without special dice, at least not without unacceptably slow lookup tables.

You can't get this result matrix:

Only this:

You don't get things like "You managed to lock the door to keep the stormtroopers out, but you also fried the mechanism that extends the bridge across the chasm." or "You don't manage to slice the electronic lock to get it open, but you do manage to turn off the alarm so someone using force won't set it off." or "You don't find the thing you were looking for, but you do find this other things instead."

But it's definitely a matter of taste. Some people (like me) like that sort of thing, and are occasionally willing to splurge for it. You are not. Your loss.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You don't get things like "You managed to lock the door to keep the stormtroopers out, but you also fried the mechanism that extends the bridge across the chasm." or "You don't manage to slice the electronic lock to get it open, but you do manage to turn off the alarm so someone using force won't set it off." or "You don't find the thing you were looking for, but you do find this other things instead."

Don't you? That sounds awfully like Daggerheart or PtbA or Spire.

What's the distinction you're making?

I mean Daggerheart has you roll two dice, no special dice, and the potential results are:

2 of the same number	Critical success
Beat DC and Hope die is higher	Yes and...
Beat DC and Fear die is higher	Yes but...
Failed DC but Hope die is higher	No but...
Failed DC but Fear die is higher	No and...

That seems like exactly the kind of 2-dimensional resolution you're explicitly saying ONLY funky dice can provide without "unacceptably slow" tables. Yet it's extremely fast lol.

Am I missing something? I guess your table technically has more gradiations but that seems like a minor difference of degree not a fundamental difference of functionality.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I actually had a series on the physical properties (dice mechanics, etc.) of TTRPGs that I never completed, so I have thought about this a bit.

I'd say the following-

A. As a general rule, I'd say that TTRPGs have adopted a "standard set" of the D&D dice. The d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20.

B. Personally, and this is just me (and a very small subset of people like me), I tend to have the view that games that only use d6 (and d6 dicepools) are somehow "not as TTRPG" as games that use more of the standard set. Because I still have the association of d6s with boardgames, Yahtzee, etc., while the standard set is associated with TTRPGs. I've mostly gotten rid of this bias through rules-lite games, but not entirely.

C. I don't mind games with alternate mechanics (jenga tower - Dread, diceless - Amber, candles - Ten Candles, etc.) that eschew dice. Even games that go off the beaten path entirely (Tarot - Everyway).

D. That said, I hate games that use alternate funky dice. I just do. While some are just annoying (d30), the ones that are custom reskins .... you know them, the ones that include their own d6s with alternate faces .... I hate them with a burning passion. I view them as a barrier to entry. I know that they will get lost. I know that at some point in the future, either I will not be playing the game (and I will have useless dice), or I will want to play it and have to use standard dice and make a "lookup table," which is annoying. And I can't remember a single game (unlike C, supra) where the alternate dice really added anything in the gameplay that was necessary are interesting.

If the game uses alternate dice, I am less likely to buy it. Because I know how the story ends, and I don't like the ending.

Everyone who personally owns more than 3-4 complete sets of dice has useless dice.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Everyone who personally owns more than 3-4 complete sets of dice has useless dice.

Everyone who owns more cutlery and plates than they use at dinner on a regular basis has useless cutlery and plates. Everyone who has more pairs of shoes than they absolutely hard-need for the activities they do on a regular basis has useless shoes (so probably 2-4 pairs max). Everyone who wears underwear has useless underwear because let's be real, you could go commando.

What are you trying to say here mate?

EDIT - In fact let's go further - all dice are useless, because you could theoretically use a dice-roller on your phone!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Everyone who personally owns more than 3-4 complete sets of dice has useless dice.

There are no useless dice! Just useless people who think the d4 is a die, and not a caltrop.

Old grognards never die; they just lose track of all their dice.

 

[Staffan]

Don't you? That sounds awfully like Daggerheart or PtbA or Spire.

What's the distinction you're making?

I mean Daggerheart has you roll two dice, no special dice, and the potential results are:

2 of the same number	Critical success
Beat DC and Hope die is higher	Yes and...
Beat DC and Fear die is higher	Yes but...
Failed DC but Hope die is higher	No but...
Failed DC but Fear die is higher	No and...

That seems like exactly the kind of 2-dimensional resolution you're explicitly saying ONLY funky dice can provide without "unacceptably slow" tables. Yet it's extremely fast lol.

Am I missing something? I guess your table technically has more gradiations but that seems like a minor difference of degree not a fundamental difference of functionality.

Daggerheart has an equal chance of Hope and Fear no matter the skill and difficulty involved (unless I'm missing something – I don't have the game so I could be missing out on nuance). In Genesys, higher skill and good circumstances will give you more good dice which gives you both more successes and more advantages, and higher difficulty and bad circumstances will give you more bad dice which give you the reverse. But it's kind of close, I'll admit.

PBTA is linear. You have to get past the bad and middling results to get to the good results on the table. In Genesys, it's eminently possible to get like four net successes for a very successful task and at the same time get two threats and a despair, effing something else up royally in the process. Perhaps you manage to fix the reactor in record time but you'll have to do it from inside.

 

[Staffan]

Everyone who personally owns more than 3-4 complete sets of dice has useless dice.

Every time I play, there's always someone who needs to borrow dice. And of course, I am happy to supply them.

 

[Umbran]

Everyone who personally owns more than 3-4 complete sets of dice has useless dice.

Spoken like someone who doesn't play dice-pool based games much.

Edit to add: you can't even cleanly roll damage for a fireball or lightning bolt with only 3-4 standard polyhedral sets.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Daggerheart has an equal chance of Hope and Fear no matter the skill and difficulty involved (unless I'm missing something – I don't have the game so I could be missing out on nuance). In Genesys, higher skill and good circumstances will give you more good dice which gives you both more successes and more advantages, and higher difficulty and bad circumstances will give you more bad dice which give you the reverse. But it's kind of close, I'll admit.

Daggerheart doesn't do it, but you could create a similar system where skill and circumstance modifiers are applied directly to the Hope die. If your bonuses exceed your penalties, Hope is more likely to beat Fear, and vice versa.